Cleopatra und Octavian

Cleopatra-79

Neues Mitglied
Hallo mich hätte mal intressiert was eure meinung ist,habe in letzter zeit viel nachgeforscht wieso cleopatra so einzigartig war und sie praktisch eine art an sich hatte jeden einzuwickeln wie cäsar und marcus antonius, nur die frage die mich brennend intressiert ,wieso hatte sie es bei octavian nicht geschafft,ihn einzulullen mit ihrer kraft ausstrahlung und magie?? Wie ja so oft behauptet wird!! Hätte das womöglich alles ändern können??:grübel:
 
...wieso hatte sie es bei octavian nicht geschafft ?

Zum einen hat das wohl daran gelegen, dass Kleopatra kein junges Ding mehr war und für Octavian einfach nicht begehrlich. Und zum anderen - sicherlich viel wichtiger -, dass eine Liaison mit Kleopatra absoluter politischer Selbstmord gewesen wäre. Einem besiegten Staatsfeind schenkte man keine Liebe, sondern führte ihn zum Triumph und anschließender Exekution nach Rom. Außerdem hatte Octavian Ägypten als Privateigentum gewonnen, da stand Kleopatra einfach im Wege.
 
Die Ausgangslage war eine völlig andere als bei Caesar.
Sie hat mit Antonius aktiv gegen Octavian gekämpft, da war sie keine hilfesuchende Thronprätendentin mehr wie seinerzeit bei ihrer Begegnung mit Caesar.
 
Cleopatra-79 schrieb:
... ihn einzulullen mit ihrer kraft ausstrahlung und magie??...
Ich glaube die Wirkung dieser Eigenschaften auf Machtmenschen wird überschätzt. Caesar brauchte sie nicht und Antonius lag ihr zu Füssen eben weil er sie brauchte.

Zudem ist es vorstellbar das zwischen ihr und Octavian allein schon wegen dem Caesarion eine persönliche Feindschaft bestanden haben muss aus der nur einer als Sieger hervorgehen konnte. Nach Actium gab es für Octavian keinerlei Grund mehr in Kleopatra etwas anderes zu sehen als einen besiegten Feind der beseitigt werden musste.
 
Den Beiträgen von @Louis le Grand, @Joinville und @Secundus stimme ich zu. Eine Liason mit Kleopatra wäre für Octavian verheerend gewesen, zumal seine Herrschaftspropaganda sich ja ausdrücklich auf die Wiederherstellung der Republik berief. Vor allem aber waren die Reichtümer Ägyptens sicher noch anziehender, als Kleopatra, zumal man die ja auch nicht mehr brauchte, um sich die Getreidelieferungen Ägyptens zu sichern, die eine elementare Rolle für die Versorgung der Stadt spielte.
 
Und der Bürgerkrieg gegen Antonius war ja offiziell auch ein Krieg gegen Ägypten.
 
Und der Bürgerkrieg gegen Antonius war ja offiziell auch ein Krieg gegen Ägypten.

Ich glaube das ist der zentrale Unterschied. Caesar kam als befreundeter römischer Staatsmann nach Ägypten, der zum einen Pompeius verfolgte, zum anderen als Testamentsvollstrecker von Ptolemaios XII. Auletes auftrat und die Thronwirren schlichten wollte.

Marcus Antonius kam ebenfalls als "Freund", der die römischen Ostprovinzen verwaltete und dem Ägyptens "Hilfe" gerade recht kam.

Bei Octavian war die politische Situation fundamental anders. Durch Antonius' Verschenkungspolitik an Kleopatra hatte sich dieser viele Senatoren und auch das römische Volk zum Feind gemacht. Der Senat (natürlich auf Antreiben Octavians) erklärte diesen daher zum Staatsfeind und Ägypten wurde formell der Krieg erklärt.

Damit war Kleopatras Schicksal besiegelt, Octavian konnte nicht als Freund nach Ägypten kommen, sondern musste über den Krieg seinen vom Senat erteilten Auftrag vollziehen: die feindlichen Oberhäupter bedingungslos ausschalten, Ägypten dem römischen Willen unterwerfen, ägyptische Getreidelieferungen nach Italia sichern.

Zwangsläufig hieß dies, dass Kleopatra als Beutestück zum Triumph nach Rom musste, so wie es Caesar mit Kleopatras Schwester Arsinoe getan hatte.
 
Nun ja, nach einer sehr guten- wie ich finde- Reportage haben die beiden sich doch auch ziemlich gehasst. Zumindest war Kleopatra eine Kämpfernatur und hätte niemals- wie eher Augustus auftischte- sich umgebracht. Zumindest wäre es daher unlogisch, weil eben die logische Theorie hervorgebracht worden war, dass niemand, der sich wirklich mit echten Absichten umbringen wolle, es vorher ankündet. Augustus war zudem im Palast. Bis das Gift hätte wirken können, hätte man sie vorher daran hindern können. Fand ich sehr plausibel und einleuchtend.

Wie gesagt, Kleopatra war eine Kämpfernatur und hätte Augustus politisch nichts genützt. Wenn sie erstmal in Rom wären, hätte er dann nicht gewusst, was nun mit dieser Frau, die sich weigert, zutun wäre. Deswegen geht man von der Theorie aus, dass er sie wahrscheinlich selsbt umgebracht hat und dann so etwas erzählt hat. Wo drin er ja ausgesprochen gut war ("Geschichten" erzählen).

Zumal: Kleopatra war nicht nur alt, sondern in Wahrheit auch gar nicht so besonders hübsch. Auch nicht für die, denke ich mal, damaligen Verhältnisse (Livia Drusilla, seine (Augustus) Frau zB., war ja wohl hübscher).
Aber wie Kleopatra zeigt, musste man nicht unbedingt immer hübsch sein; Besonders nicht um zu herrschen. Da war Schönheit vielleicht sogar ein Fehler, da der Stolz meist die Klugheit in Dummheit umsetzt. Und das war sie gewiss ganz und gar nicht.
 
@tal!m: Zumal: Kleopatra war nicht nur alt, sondern in Wahrheit auch gar nicht so besonders hübsch.
Ich vermute mal, dass du trotz deines Avatars ein junger Mann bist. Nun, Schönheit liegt im Auge des Betrachters, was gäbe es für ein Chaos, wenn alle Männer nur auf magersüchtige und aufgebrezelte Supermodels abfahren würden.
Kleopatra VII - Wikipedia.
Wenn ich mir die abgebildete Marmorbüste ansehe, vermag ich nichts Hässliches an ihr zu entdecken. Zumal, nicht unwichtig an einer begehrenswerten Frau, Kleopatra Macht, Bildung und Esprit besessen hat - auch das macht sexy. Und uralt war sie mit etwa 40 bei ihrem Tod auch nicht, das galt auch in der Antike zumindest in der Oberschicht.
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
...weil eben die logische Theorie hervorgebracht worden war, dass niemand, der sich wirklich mit echten Absichten umbringen wolle, es vorher ankündet.

Nur leider wir hier Suizidversuch als Folge psychischer Erkrankung (Ankündigung um Aufmerksamkeit zu erzielen), mit Suizid aus Gründen der Ehre (Kleopatra) verwechselt.

Augustus war zudem im Palast. Bis das Gift hätte wirken können, hätte man sie vorher daran hindern können.

Ein Palastviertel, das 1/4 der ganzen Stadt einnahm. Da ist man nicht schnell mal neben an. Außerdem kannte die antike Medizin keinerlei Gegengifte bei Schlangengift!

Wie gesagt, Kleopatra war eine Kämpfernatur und hätte Augustus politisch nichts genützt. Wenn sie erstmal in Rom wären, hätte er dann nicht gewusst, was nun mit dieser Frau, die sich weigert, zutun wäre.

Im Triumphzug hätte sie ihm sehrwohl sehr viel genutzt, schon aus propagandistischen Gründen. Danach? Dann hätte man ihr entweder das Schicksal eines Vercingetorix (Exekution) oder ihrer Schwester Arsinoë IV. (Verbannung) angedeihen lassen. Eine einsame Insel im Mittelmeer wie Pandateria hätte sich finden lassen und Octavian liebte Verbannung als Strafe außerordentlich.

Deswegen geht man von der Theorie aus, dass er sie wahrscheinlich selsbt umgebracht hat und dann so etwas erzählt hat.

Einige Historiker sind der Ansicht, dass Octavian Kleopatra, durch sein abweisendes und brüskes Verhalten ihr gegenüber, mit Absicht in den Selbstmord getrieben hätte. Die Mehrheitsmeinung in der geschichtswissenschaftlichen Forschung geht aber weiterhin davon aus, dass sie Selbstmord zur Wahrung ihrer königlichen Ehre begann. Die Theorie von der gewaltsamen Ermordung durch Octavian hingegen, ist völlig abwegig und spiegelt in keinster Weise den heutigen Forschungsstand wider.
 
Um die Situation zwischen Octavian und Kleopatra mal etwas aufzuhellen: Die Begegnung zwischen beiden und ihren Tod kennen wir ausführlicher nur von Cassius Dio und Plutarch. Beide schrieben lange Zeit danach ihre Bücher und haben einiges auch sehr ausgeschmückt. Insbesondere die Dialoge sind wohl frei erfunden.

Dio berichtet:

(Bitte sämliche Zahlen im Text einfach ignorieren)

So Antony died there in Cleopatra's bosom; 11 and she now felt a certain confidence in Caesar, and immediately informed him of what had taken placed; still, she was not altogether convinced that she would suffer no harm. She accordingly kept herself within the building, in order that, even if there should be no other motive for her preservation, she might at least purchase pardon and her kingdom through his fear for the money. 2 So thoroughly mindful was she even then, in the midst of her dire misfortune, of her royal rank, and chose rather to p33die with the name and dignity of a sovereign than to live in a private station. At all events, she kept at hand fire to consume her wealth, and asps and other reptiles to destroy herself, and she had the latter tried on human beings, to see in what way they killed in each case. 3 Now Caesar was anxious not only to get possession of her treasures but also to seize her alive and to carry her back for his triumph, yet he was unwilling to appear to have tricked her himself after having given her a kind of pledge, since he wished to treat her as a captive and to a certain extent subdued against her will. 4 He therefore sent to her Gaius Proculeius, a knight, and Epaphroditus, a freedman, giving them directions as to what they were to say and do. Following out this plan, they obtained an audience with Cleopatra, and after discussing with her some moderate proposals they suddenly seized her before any agreement was reached. 5 After this they put out of her way everything by means of which she could cause her own death and allowed her to spend some days where she was, occupied in embalming Antony's body; then they took her to the palace, but did not remove any of her accustomed retinue or attendants, in order that she should entertain more hope than ever of accomplishing all she desired, and so should do no harm to herself. 6 At any rate, when she expressed a desire to appear before Caesar and to have an interview with him, she gained her request; and to deceive her still more, he promised that he would come to her himself.

12 She accordingly prepared a splendid apartment and a costly couch, and moreover arrayed herself with affected negligence,— indeed, her mourning p35garb wonderfully became her,— and seated herself upon the couch; beside her she placed many images of his father, of all kinds, and in her bosom she put all the letters that his father had sent her. 2 When, after this, Caesar entered, she leaped gracefully to her feet and cried: "Hail, master — for Heaven has granted you the mastery and taken it from me. But surely you can see with your own eyes how your father looked when he visited me on many occasions, and you have heard people tell how he honoured me in various ways and made me queen of the Egyptians. 3 That you may, however, earn something about me from him himself, take and read the letters which he wrote me with his own hand."

After she had spoken thus, she proceeded to read many passionate expressions of Caesar's. And now she would lament and kiss the letters, and again she would fall before his images and do them reverence. 4 She kept turning her eyes toward Caesar and bewailing her fate in musical accents. She spoke in melting tones, saying at one time, "Of what avail to me, Caesar, are these thy letters?" and at anyone, "But in this man here thou also art alive for me"; again, "Would that I had died before thee," and still again, "But if I have him, I have thee."

5 Such were the subtleties of speech and of attitude which she employed, and sweet were the glances she cast at him and the words she murmured to him. Now Caesar was not insensible to the ardour of her speech and the appeal to his passions, but he pretended p37to be; and letting his eyes rest upon the ground, he merely said: "Be of good cheer, woman, and keep a stout heart; for you shall suffer no harm." 6 She was greatly distressed because he would neither look at her nor say anything about the kingdom nor even utter a word of love, and falling at his knees, she said with an outburst of sobbing: "I neither wish to live nor can I live, Caesar. But this favour I beg of you in memory of your father, that, since Heaven gave me to Antony after him, I may also die with Antony. 7 Would that I had perished then, straightway after Caesar! But since it was decreed by fate that I should suffer this affliction also, send me to Antony; grudge me not burial with him, in order that, as it is because of him I die, so I may dwell with him even in Hades."

13 Such words she uttered, expecting to move him to pity, but Caesar made no answer to them; fearing, however, that she might destroy herself, he exhorted her again to be of good cheer, and not only did not remove any of her attendants but also took special care of her, that she might add brilliance to his triumph. 2 This purpose she suspected, and regarding that fate as worse than a thousand deaths, she conceived a genuine desire to die, and not only addressed many entreaties to Caesar that she might perish in some manner or other, but also devised many plans herself. 3 But when she could accomplish nothing, she feigned a change of heart, pretending to set great hopes in him and also in Livia. She said she would sail of her own free will, and she made ready some treasured articles of adornment to use as gifts, p39in the hope that by these means she might inspire belief that it was not her purpose to die, and so might be less closely guarded and thus be able to destroy herself. 4 And so it came about. For as soon as the others and Epaphroditus, to whose charge she had been committed, had come to believe that she really felt as she pretended to, and neglected to keep a careful watch, she made her preparations to die as painlessly as possible. First she gave a sealed paper, in which she begged Caesar to order that she be buried beside Antony, to Epaphroditus himself to deliver, 5 pretending that it contained some other matter, and then, having by this excuse freed herself of his presence, she set to her task. She put on her most beautiful apparel, arranged her body in most seemly fashion, took in her hands all the emblems of royalty, and so died.

14 No one knows clearly in what way she perished, for the only marks on her body were slight pricks on the arm. Some say she applied to herself an asp which had been brought in to her in a water-jar, or perhaps hidden in some flowers. 2 Others declare that she had smeared a pin, with which she was wont to fasten her hair, with some poison possessed of such a property that in ordinary circumstances it would not injure the body at all, but if it came into contact with even a drop of blood would destroy the body very quietly and painlessly; and that previous to this time she had worn it in her hair as usual, but now had made a slight scratch on her arm and had dipped the pin in the blood. 3 In this or in some very similar way she perished, and her two handmaidens with her. As for the eunuch, he had of his own accord delivered himself up to the serpents at the very time p41of Cleopatra's arrest, and after being bitten by them had leaped into a coffin already prepared for him. When Caesar heard of Cleopatra's death, he was astounded, and not only viewed her body but also made use of drugs and Psylli in the hope that she might revive. 4 These Psylli are males, for there is no woman born in their tribe, and they have the power to suck out any poison of any reptile, if use is made of them immediately, before the victim dies; and they are not harmed themselves when bitten by any such creature. 5 They are propagated from one another and they test their offspring either by having them thrown among serpents as soon as they are born or else by having their swaddling-clothes thrown upon serpents; for the reptiles in the one case do no harm to the child, and in the other case are benumbed by its clothing. 6 So much for this matter. But Caesar, when he could not in any way resuscitate Cleopatra, felt both admiration and pity for her, and was excessively grieved on his own account, as if he had been deprived of all the glory of his victory.

15 Thus Antony and Cleopatra, who had caused many evils to the Egyptians and many to the Romans, made war and met their death in the manner I have described; and they were both embalmed in the same fashion and buried in the same tomb.
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Plutarch berichtet:

Many kings and great commanders made petition to Caesar for the
body of Antony, to give him his funeral rites; but he would not
take away his corpse from Cleopatra, by whose hands he was
buried with royal splendor and magnificence, it being granted to
her to employ what she pleased on his funeral. In this
extremity of grief and sorrow, and having inflamed and ulcerated
her breasts with beating them, she fell into a high fever, and
was very glad of the occasion, hoping, under this pretext, to
abstain from food, and so to die in quiet without interference.
She had her own physician, Olympus, to whom she told the truth,
and asked his advice and help to put an end to herself, as
Olympus himself has told us, in a narrative which he wrote of
these events. But Caesar, suspecting her purpose, took to
menacing language about her children, and excited her fears for
them, before which engines her purpose shook and gave way, so
that she suffered those about her to give her what meat or
medicine they pleased.

Some few days after, Caesar himself came to make her a visit and
comfort her. She lay then upon her pallet-bed in undress,
and, on his entering in, sprang up from off her bed, having
nothing on but the one garment next her body, and flung herself
at his feet, her hair and face looking wild and disfigured, her
voice quivering, and her eyes sunk in her head. The marks of
the blows she had given herself were visible about her bosom,
and altogether her whole person seemed no less afflicted than
her soul. But, for all this, her old charm, and the boldness of
her youthful beauty had not wholly left her, and, in spite of
her present condition, still sparkled from within, and let
itself appear in all the movements of her countenance. Caesar,
desiring her to repose herself, sat down by her; and, on this
opportunity, she said something to justify her actions,
attributing what she had done to the necessity she was under,
and to her fear of Antony; and when Caesar, on each point, made
his objections, and she found herself confuted, she broke off at
once into language of entreaty and deprecation, as if she
desired nothing more than to prolong her life. And at last,
having by her a list of her treasure, she gave it into his
hands; and when Seleucus, one of her stewards, who was by,
pointed out that various articles were omitted, and charged her
with secreting them, she flew up and caught him by the hair, and
struck him several blows on the face. Caesar smiling and
withholding her, "Is it not very hard, Caesar," said she, "when
you do me the honor to visit me in this condition I am in, that
I should be accused by one of my own servants of laying by some
women's toys, not meant to adorn, be sure, my unhappy self, but
that I might have some little present by me to make your Octavia
and your Livia, that by their intercession I might hope to find
you in some measure disposed to mercy?" Caesar was pleased to
hear her talk thus, being now assured that she was desirous to
live. And, therefore, letting her know that the things she had
laid by she might dispose of as she pleased, and his usage of
her should be honorable above her expectation, he went away,
well satisfied that he had overreached her, but, in fact, was
himself deceived.

There was a young man of distinction among Caesar's companions,
named Cornelius Dolabella. He was not without a certain
tenderness for Cleopatra, and sent her word privately, as she
had besought him to do, that Caesar was about to return through
Syria, and that she and her children were to be sent on within
three days. When she understood this, she made her request to
Caesar that he would be pleased to permit her to make oblations
to the departed Antony; which being granted, she ordered herself
to be carried to the place where he was buried, and there,
accompanied by her women, she embraced his tomb with tears in
her eyes, and spoke in this manner: "O, dearest Antony," said
she, "it is not long since that with these hands I buried you;
then they were free, now I am a captive, and pay these last
duties to you with a guard upon me, for fear that my just griefs
and sorrows should impair my servile body, and make it less fit
to appear in their triumph over you. No further offerings or
libations expect from me; these are the last honors that
Cleopatra can pay your memory, for she is to be hurried away far
from you. Nothing could part us whilst we lived, but death
seems to threaten to divide us. You, a Roman born, have found a
grave in Egypt; I, an Egyptian, am to seek that favor, and none
but that, in your country. But if the gods below, with whom
you now are, either can or will do anything (since those above
have betrayed us), suffer not your living wife to be abandoned;
let me not be led in triumph to your shame, but hide me and bury
me here with you, since, amongst all my bitter misfortunes,
nothing has afflicted me like this brief time that I have lived
away from you."

Having made these lamentations, crowning the tomb with garlands
and kissing it, she gave orders to prepare her a bath, and,
coming out of the bath, she lay down and made a sumptuous meal.
And a country fellow brought her a little basket, which the
guards intercepting and asking what it was, the fellow put the
leaves which lay uppermost aside, and showed them it was full of
figs; and on their admiring the largeness and beauty of the
figs, he laughed, and invited them to take some, which they
refused, and, suspecting nothing, bade him carry them in. After
her repast, Cleopatra sent to Caesar a letter which she had
written and sealed; and, putting everybody out of the monument
but her two women, she shut the doors. Caesar, opening her
letter, and finding pathetic prayers and entreaties that she
might be buried in the same tomb with Antony, soon guessed what
was doing. At first he was going himself in all haste, but,
changing his mind, he sent others to see. The thing had been
quickly done. The messengers came at full speed, and found the
guards apprehensive of nothing; but on opening the doors, they
saw her stone-dead, lying upon a bed of gold, set out in all her
royal ornaments. Iras, one of her women, lay dying at her feet,
and Charmion, just ready to fall, scarce able to hold up her
head, was adjusting her mistress's diadem. And when one that
came in said angrily, "Was this well done of your lady,
Charmion?" "Extremely well," she answered, "and as became the
descendant of so many kings"; and as she said this, she fell
down dead by the bedside.

Some relate that an asp was brought in amongst those figs and
covered with the leaves, and that Cleopatra had arranged that it
might settle on her before she knew, but, when she took away
some of the figs and saw it, she said, "So here it is," and held
out her bare arm to be bitten. Others say that it was kept in a
vase, and that she vexed and pricked it with a golden spindle
till it seized her arm. But what really took place is known to
no one. Since it was also said that she carried poison in a
hollow bodkin, about which she wound her hair; yet there was not
so much as a spot found, or any symptom of poison upon her body,
nor was the asp seen within the monument; only something like
the trail of it was said to have been noticed on the sand by the
sea, on the part towards which the building faced and where the
windows were. Some relate that two faint puncture-marks were
found on Cleopatra's arm, and to this account Caesar seems to
have given credit; for in his triumph there was carried a figure
of Cleopatra, with an asp clinging to her. Such are the various
accounts. But Caesar, though much disappointed by her death,
yet could not but admire the greatness of her spirit, and gave
order that her body should he buried by Antony with royal
splendor and magnificence. Her women, also, received honorable
burial by his directions. Cleopatra had lived nine and thirty
years, during twenty-two of which she had reigned as queen, and
for fourteen had been Antony's partner in his empire. Antony,
according to some authorities, was fifty-three, according to
others, fifty-six years old. His statues were all thrown down,
but those of Cleopatra were left untouched; for Archibius, one
of her friends, gave Caesar two thousand talents to save them
from the fate of Antony's.
 
Sorry, großer Louis. Existieren Dio und Plutarch nicht auch in deutscher Übersetzung? Es gibt im Forum nämlich Teilnehmer, deren Englisch nicht so prickelnd ist. Für diese Leute ist es, als hättest du mir die lateinische bzw. griechische Originalfassung mitgeteilt. :winke:
 
Zuletzt bearbeitet:
Zurück
Oben