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Dieses Thema im Forum "Fragen & Antworten" wurde erstellt von FranzJunker, 7. Oktober 2021.
There are memorials for Soviet prisoners of war in Germany.
Nach 75 Jahren: Denkmal erinnert an Kriegsverbrechen in Passau
Mahnmal Stadtwaldlager 1987
So, they are not forgotten.
Soviet POWs were in a terrible Situation even after the war. Stalin accused them of collaboration with Nazi-Germany. That's why a lot of them got deported to GULAGs after 1945.
Btw I don't appreciate generalisations like "Germans remember this" or "Germans don't remember this". We are all individuals and some of us are interested in history more than others.
Well, in the past Germans divided German war participants in two bigger groups: Wehrmacht and SS, the myth was, SS were all cruel Nazis, but the Wehrmacht waged a clean war. This myth couldn’t be sustained. So, in the 1990ies there was much work done, there was a big debate in the society about the so called Wehrmacht exhibition, which displayed the atrocities of war.
A few years ago, there was a mini serial in television Our Mothers, our Fathers. This was discussed first in Germany, later in Poland and the USA. In Germany it was discussed, because in it was displayed how non-Nazis in the Wehrmacht were shown how they ended up as murderers (of Soviet civilians). A big newspaper in Germany acted surprised, as if there hadn’t be the big debate in the 1990ies. In Poland and the US it was discussed, because several Polish nationalists were shown as antisemites. There was even a trial in Poland against the German broadcasting company, because of that.
The division in clean Wehrmacht and cruel SS for about 40 years - from 1945 till about 1985 - and the Cold War till 1990 hindered the historical work-up. Well, the truth is, that nobody wants to know, that this likeable old man next door was a horrible murderer.
But today, if you want to know about German war atrocities, you can know about them. There are books, exhibitions, documentaries on TV, movies (American movies as well as German movies), novels (I read several years ago from Daniel Benioff Stadt der Diebe, English Original City of thieves, Benioff is a Hollywood screenwriter whose grandfather lived in Leningrad during the German siege), the Russian writer Daniil Granin spoke several years ago in the German parliament (Bundestag) about German war atrocities concerning the Leningrad siege.
But you can’t force the population to be interested in history. The FRG has accepted to be the legal successor of the Third Reich. In schools, not just in history lessons, but in native language teaching, in religion or ethics, in politics or social sciences Nazi war crimes are a repeating topic in several ways. You can’t put knowledge in the heads of the people. You can offer them, to acquire knowledge. That’s all you can do.
And there is something else. You can do a tour to Bergen-Belsen, Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, to Theresienstadt and Auschwitz. But if you go with a class to Petrograd, you won’t see the atrocities. Maybe you can visit a monument. If you go to any place in the Ukrainian plains ore Belorussian woods, the war atrocities will remain abstract.
Что насчет русских людей, помнят ли они многочисленные преступления сталинской эпохи?
I'm not a schoolboy to go on field trips with my class. I live in St. Petersburg, I also take part in a group to search for the remains of soldiers and preserve history. So, considering the fact that the places of the crimes are abstract, next to St. Petersburg you can walk through the fields and think - what beautiful fields! The fact is that there used to be dozens of villages in these places, and what happened to them? The Nazis burned it, often together with the inhabitants. Another example, near the Peterhof highway there was a beautiful English palace, today if you come to that place you will see two stones and a heap of rubble. So there is no need to talk about abstract things here. As for the film "Our Mothers and Fathers" - it is always surprising how modern Germans see their ancestors as confused boys who were simply sent to the wrong place. Please watch the YouTube channel "German History Archive", look at the smiling, happy faces of the German soldier. They are full of a sense of superiority, greatness, impunity. The film also shows some hipsters in the Wehrmacht uniform, just like in the film "My Land" 2015 All these films are aimed at making the Germans feel not the culprit, but the victims. Well, your right. Drink your Bavarian beer and enjoy yourself. What many of you don't know about history is a link to the rise in popularity of the marginal, right-wing AFD party. Thank you for your answer. The answers on this site only confirm my opinion about the Germans.
Most of my acquaintances are aware of the crimes of Stalinism, about the gulag, barrage detachments, hunger and other things. To justify Stalinism and the actions of the NKVD and the KGB, in my opinion, is a crime. But if you want to hurt me or the Russians with your question, please .. continue .. Educated and adequate Russians know this part of their history very well. I can even help you remember other atrocities of the USSR. Is this what you want? We can recall the attack on Finland in 1939, the forcible annexation of the Baltic countries in 1940, the partition of Poland in 1939, the Holodomor in Ukraine in the 1930s. Enough? This thread discusses something else. If you have any questions, you are always welcome
Ich hoffe der Übersetzter bringt es so einigermaßen.
First of all, I would very much like not to speak of the Germans in general terms here.
I think there is hardly a nation that deals with its own history as critically as that of the Federal Republic of Germany. Many nations simply suppress their crimes and pretend that nothing has happened. Germany has done a lot for reparations, apologized to the victims and is now a free democracy. Everyone can freely express their opinion here without fear of being sent to a prison camp. Many Nazi criminals, even if by no means enough, have been punished.
Today Germany does not attack any of its neighbors or claim their territory
I never wrote anything like this. This is a misunderstanding.
That’s the problem, you walk through beautiful fields. That’s why the war crimes remain abstract. You can’t feel the what the victims felt, if you are missing the context.
Of course you can criticize the Movie or mini serial for its naiveté. But it was made for a German audience in a time when most surviving victims and most culprits were already dead. You know, we have an average life expectancy of about 80 years more or less. The serial was displayed in 2013. 70 years after. Surviving victims or perpetrators were in their 90ies. Just yesterday began a trial on a Sachsenhausen-SS-oficial, who is now 100 years old), last week began a trial on a Stutthof-secretary, who worked as an 18-year-old-woman there. She is now 96. These people survived 20 years of the average life expectancy in Germany.
In German we say: „Man muss die Leute abholen, wo sie stehen“ - you have to pick up people where they are. That means, if you want to tell them something about Nazi war crimes, you can show them like in 1950-Hollywood-movies as sadists, who want to kill, kill, kill. Or you show them, as was they were: ordinary men and women, which developed themselves into murderers. If you want to tell the people in a movie something about the development of ordinary men (and women) to murderers, you can‘t show the sadist SS-beasts as in older Hollywood- or Stalin era-movies.
Of course there many nazis in the ranks of the Wehrmacht. But not everyone who came into the situation, when he murdered - and I speak of murder, not killing within fighting - was a convinced Nazi. The lesson we have to learn is, how to prevent going the steps which lead into war crimes. And one lesson is, that you don‘t need to be ideologically stable racist to commit racist atrocities.
Well, I don‘t know why you act offended.
I will tell you something. My parents were born during the war. They were three and five years old, when the war was over. Are they guilty? I Can tell you, that my grandfathers were not in the war. The father of my mother was an war invalid of the WWI, in the lädt days of the war he came to the so called Volkssturm (old men and young boys and girls), the other one was farmer. The oldest brother of my father was in the Soviet Union. He came back, he wasn‘t a POW (at least not in the SU). He told one time something. He talked about atrocities in the back of the front. He told my grandparents, that another farmer of the same village was in the troops who were committing atrocities in the back of the front. We don‘t know, if my uncle committed any atrocities. I fear, he did. But I don’t know.
So, my parents were young child’s during the war. Are they guilty for German war atrocities? I was born 32 years after the war. Am I guilty for German war atrocities?
I already told you, that the FRG overtook the legal succession of the Third Reich. But you can‘t declare every German individual guilty.
I do understand, that you, loosing half of your family, don‘t like Germany very much, but please get along with that, that the average German living today didn‘t commit any war crimes and that guilt is individual not collective.
You are probably right, this is more my personal problem. It's just that when I see footage of the Germans kneeling down, arranging memorials to Jewish victims, I always remember my killed relatives and also the bones of Soviet soldiers who are still quite numerous in the forests and fields near St. Petersburg, which our search group periodically digs up and tries to identify. You are right, I do not like Germany and the Germans, and it will probably be easier for me to imagine that you do not exist at all. What makes me happy is that even century-old Nazi criminals will face trial and die in a prison cell.
Nobody here wants to hurt you or the Russian people. But please don't hurt anyone here either. Here in the history forum everyone is very aware of the oppressive national socialist crimes and condemns them accordingly.!
Not nice designs. With very few exceptions, what can today's German people do for the crimes of the Nazi criminals? Today's Germany is completely different from that of 1933 to 1945. In Germany, the change has succeeded. 30 years ago there was the nice action, I was there too, Hamburg helps Petersburg. That alone is proof that times have changed in Germany.
France and Germany have shown how international reconciliation works. Both nations are close friends today.
This site is unpolitical, but I guess you wont find many users of this forum voting for any right-wing party. I've been to St. Petersburg in 2016 for a week. Besides visiting sights like the Eremitage, Newski Prospekt or Peter and Paul Fortress, of course I went to the Museum of the Siege of Leningrad. I took a friend who was with me in Petersburg there too. He's a tiler and not so deeply interested in history. We both knew about the siege, but he didn't realise how long and cruel it was before being to that museum.
This friend's mother is from Greece. One of my grandfathers was fighting against Nazi-Germany. He was an American GI and met my grandma briefly after the war. But we are both Germans, this is German reality. I would really appreciate if you reconsider some of your attitudes towards "the Germans". Hate is a bad friend.
"France and Germany have shown how international reconciliation works. Both nations are close friends today." - with all due respect, this is not a very correct comparison. France quickly lost, surrendered, in fact did not take part in the Second World War. The destruction and damage caused by Germany to the USSR is not comparable to what France lost. It is easy to forgive and forget when you first lost, secondly you didn’t put up resistance, thirdly your cities weren’t destroyed, your people weren’t killed.
French people would see this totally different, than you.
Of course it is right, that France suffered less under German control, than the Eastern European occupied territories, that`s because Nazi Germany waged a racistic war of extermination in Eastern Europe, especially against Slavic Populations. In Western Europe Nazi Germany "just" waged a cleptocratic war, without the goal of extermination. Nevertheless, there were massacres in Greece, Italy (after Mussolinis fall) and France, too. For Jews it didn't make a difference, where they were found by German authorities.
Jews are unlucky in all countries. The Germans found them everywhere. However, judging by the footage of the chronicle, the French did not live so badly under occupation. However, I am not going here to measure the losses and damage to the countries occupied by Germany. I just expressed my opinion that comparing the contribution to the victory of France and the USSR is different. The French can think as they want, but historical data, statistics cannot lie
i can´t believe that it is easy in France to forgive and to forget Oradour-sur-Glane.
i can´t believe that it is easy in Poland to forgive and to forget Katyn.
i can´t believe that all the Nazi terror could be forgotten one day.
but i believe that all modern nations and cultures are able on one hand to remember all (!) known history without nationalistic hate, and on the other hand to built bridges - bridges to understand each other, to discuss positions, to find a peaceful way together.
i have a lot of polish, french, spanish, american, russian collegues, i meet them every year many times - and this is always without hate and so on. It is 2021, not 1945.
French Resistance - Wikipedia
Category:Nazi war crimes in France - Wikipedia
You "think" so?
I hope not, because in such case it wouldn't be of any use talking to you.
Thank you for visiting the Museum of the Siege of Leningrad! But you are rather an exception to the rule, most of the guests from Germany, upon arrival in St. Petersburg, mostly go to the nearest bar to get drunk on beer. (I worked at the hotel reception). "Hate is a bad friend" - There is a good phrase - Hate It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet. (Maya Angelou)