Nazi-Verbrechen gegen die Bevölkerung der UdSSR

Tatsächlich würde ich dafür plädieren, von einem engen Genozid-Begriff auszugehen, so wie es im Deutschen üblich ist."
Da bin ich mit dir absolut d’accord. Das sehe ich aber durchaus durch die Definition § 6 Völkerstrafgesetzbuch gedeckt. Backes Hungerplan bzw. seine Umsetzung war Völkermord. Und er wurde gegen Osteuropäer umgesetzt.
 
This is a discussion, all participants need to know the context. You and the user you wrote in German knows English. So do not arrange demagoguery. Or is your forum only for a select few German speakers, right?
I won‘t discuss this. Further metadiscussion won‘t be published. You are able to use translators, if you are interested in side discussion between users. Users answering to you will try to do this in English.
You demand respect but you do not respect others - e.g. the French Résistance. If you would respect others - e.g. the French Résistance - one would be more open to your demands.

If you take the choice of language for postings by users among each other as an opportunity to cultivate your reservations about Germans, that is your decision. But don't shift the responsibility onto the forum. You have decided to visit a German forum, you received a respectful response, although you made no secret of your antipathy.
 
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1) In general, of course, it is very "nice and respectful" to correspond with each other in German in a discussion where at least one person does not know German. Well, this is so, by the way. Do whatever you want
2) As for the term "genocide", the concept is vague and in different languages the understanding of this term is different in some aspects. It seems to me that you do not grasp the essence of what I mean - the victims are comparable, whatever you call it. People died - millions of Slavs, millions of Jews. Accordingly, the attitude towards the memory of them should be equal.
3) Wer Wind sät, wird den Sturm ernten. - relate to the population of Germany and German prisoners too
4) Honestly, I was waiting for a mention of the cooperation between Stalin and the Nazis, the capture of the Baltic countries and the partition of Poland, etc. Look at the beginning of the discussion, I already answered this there. I and my friends (I cannot speak for all Russians) know all this very well, no one will justify anyone. Moreover, I am ashamed of some older Russians who are trying to justify this.
I think because of your wounded pride, you want to translate the arrows, poking at the other with your finger. In Russia, the dead soldiers are honored, the majority knows or seeks to know the fate of their ancestors who died on the territory of the USSR and on the territory of Germany. For us, World War II is the most important, bloody, heroic page in our history. "Nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten"
5) Many thanks for the good answers, it is important for me to hear an adequate point of view from the German side. However, I want to note that we are on a historical forum, most of us know history quite well. However, most of the Germans with whom I spoke, corresponded in comments on YouTube, on such resources as Quora and Reddit, were arrogant, rude, in many military aspects inclined to justify the actions of the German army, do not know anything about the eastern front, they immediately begin to reproach you Stalin, Gulag and others.
But the world will not let the Germans and Austrians forget their actions - the Jews, Russians, Dutch and others will not forget to remind you every time. In films, books, memoirs, chronicles.
About how German youth teaches the second world in schools, I will attach a link to the video. It is in Russian, but there is also a German language.

First of all: You did not answer my question as to whether the German victims of the Red Army are commemorated in Russia. However, from your answer, I suspect that this is not the case. Why do you expect it to be the other way round? Whoever saws the wind will reap the storm. Aha, so you measure with two different rights. One goes for the "heroic Russian soldier" and one goes for the Germans. So it is okay for you if German women and children en masse are raped and murdered because it was members of the nation who invaded the Soviet Union, even though they did not harm any Russians. Do you really believe that with this point of view you can reach anyone. I hope that the Russian people do not think like you do, because otherwise I look black for international understanding, let alone. Acknowledging that the others, here explicitly the Germans, have suffered injustice and suffering, that is a basic requirement. Millions of Germans, like Russians, have suffered the worst and future generations should talk about it, it is important. But if you only pillory Germany and ignore all others, the hurdles are likely to be high. Usually I can see nothing heroic in the silly orders from Stalin, which resulted in many deaths, in 1941. And in the war years that followed, the Red Army had to pay a heavy toll in blood for its victories. The victory was certainly not heroic if the enemy had to wage war against the other world powers in the West at the same time.


Finally, I would like to say that it is not particularly polite to complain in a German forum that is not exactly nice when users are talking in German.
 
Du, ich nutze einfach den google translator, da mein englisch einfach zu dürftig ist. Dein Englisch ist sicher besser, als das meinige. Wenn du eine sinnvolle Korrektur weiß, dann kannst du, wenn du magst, diese anbringen.
 
First of all: You did not answer my question as to whether the German victims of the Red Army are commemorated in Russia. However, from your answer, I suspect that this is not the case. Why do you expect it to be the other way round? Whoever saws the wind will reap the storm. Aha, so you measure with two different rights. One goes for the "heroic Russian soldier" and one goes for the Germans. So it is okay for you if German women and children en masse are raped and murdered because it was members of the nation who invaded the Soviet Union, even though they did not harm any Russians. Do you really believe that with this point of view you can reach anyone. I hope that the Russian people do not think like you do, because otherwise I look black for international understanding, let alone. Acknowledging that the others, here explicitly the Germans, have suffered injustice and suffering, that is a basic requirement. Millions of Germans, like Russians, have suffered the worst and future generations should talk about it, it is important. But if you only pillory Germany and ignore all others, the hurdles are likely to be high. Usually I can see nothing heroic in the silly orders from Stalin, which resulted in many deaths, in 1941. And in the war years that followed, the Red Army had to pay a heavy toll in blood for its victories. The victory was certainly not heroic if the enemy had to wage war against the other world powers in the West at the same time.


Finally, I would like to say that it is not particularly polite to complain in a German forum that is not exactly nice when users are talking in German.

"The victory was certainly not heroic if the enemy had to wage war against the other world powers in the West at the same time" - in my messages somewhere I belittled the role of the United States and Britain in the war? They made a huge contribution. From your side, it looks like you are trying to lead to the idea that the victory of the Soviet Union would not have been so heroic if Germany had not fought in the West as well. I agree with you, then the Soviet Union would have had a very small chance of winning. So what? Does it make it easier for you?
 
"The victory was certainly not heroic if the enemy had to wage war against the other world powers in the West at the same time" - in my messages somewhere I belittled the role of the United States and Britain in the war? They made a huge contribution. From your side, it looks like you are trying to lead to the idea that the victory of the Soviet Union would not have been so heroic if Germany had not fought in the West as well. I agree with you, then the Soviet Union would have had a very small chance of winning. So what? Does it make it easier for you?

I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the Nazi Empire lost this terrible war. But on the contrary!

But there is still no answer from you, whether the German victims of the Red Army will be remembered in Russia?
 
Turgot, ohne die Grausamkeiten der Soldaten der Roten Armee 1944/45 in Abrede stellen zu wollen, die nicht zwischen Tätern und Nichttätern unterschieden - aber wie hätten sie die auch unterscheiden können, es wollte ja plötzlich keiner mehr Nazi gewesen sein? - Deutschland hat den Krieg nun mal angefangen und als Vernichtungskrieg geführt. Dass die Rache auf dem Fuße folgen würde, war im Grunde den Tätern klar. Nun hat „Franz“ in einem seiner Beiträge (es kann sein, dass der aus anderen Gründen nicht freigeschaltet wurde) darüber geklagt, dass Deutschland doch am Ende ziemlich gut weggekommen sei aus dem Krieg. Vom Ende her betrachtet hat er da nicht ganz Unrecht. Von dem sich anbahnenden Kalten Krieg haben insbesondere die westlichen Besatzungszonen profitiert. Mein Großvater hat 1946 bis 1948 ständig die amerikanische Schokolade, die in den Schulspeisungen dabei war zu den Bauern gebracht und gegen Kartoffeln etc. eingetauscht. In der britischen und amerikanischen Besatzungszone ging es den Leuten recht schnell wieder einigermaßen gut. In Ostdeutschland sah es freilich anders aus, da wurden Männer auf Jahre oder auf Nimmerwiedersehen nach Sibirien verschleppt. Natürlich haben in den letzten Kriegstagen auch viele Unschuldige den Preis für die Verbrechen der Deutschen in der Sowjetunion bezahlt. Meine Großmutter (die mit meiner Mutter aus dem Ruhrgebiet nach Oschersleben geflohen war) ist vielleicht auch vergewaltigt worden. Wenn meine Großmutter 1945 vergewaltigt wurde, dann hatte meine Mutter die Gnade, das nicht miterleben zu müssen. Meine Mutter hatte aus den letzten Kriegstagen und ersten Nachkriegstagen drei Erinnerungen: 1.) Wenn die Dämmerung einsetzte, verschwanden die Frauen (was sie sich natürlich erst Jahre später erklären konnte), 2.) ein sowjetischer Soldat, der bei einer solchen Gelegenheit in ihr Zimmer kam, roch an ihrem Nachttopf (was sie als Kind unheimlich witzig fand), und 3.) als sie mit ihrer Mutter nach Kriegsende wieder ins Ruhrgebiet zurückkehrte, half ein sowjetischer Soldat ihrer Mutter und ihr über einen Bach. Er hatte dabei beide Arme voller Armbanduhren, was das Vorschulkind wohl ziemlich beeindruckend fand. Die Erinnerungen aus Oschersleben verschwammen mit den Erinnerungen, dass sie von ihrem Vater mal geohrfeigt wurde, weil sie heulend in den Keller laufen wollte, aber die Flugzeuge am Himmel waren keine Alliierten Bomber sondern deutsche Flugzeuge, und dass sie aus der Wohnung plötzlich durch das Dach in den Himmel gucken konnte. Wenn ich das richtig weiß, muss das vor Kriegsende gewesen sein, weil meine Großeltern zwei Wohnungen hatten, und die mit dem Loch in der Decke (bis in den Keller durchgerauschter Blindgänger) wohl dann gegen Ende des Krieges oder nach Ende des Krieges von fremden Leuten bezogen wurde (also entweder Ausgebombten oder Flüchtlingen), wohingegen meine Großeltern in der intakten Wohnung blieben.

So bitter das ist, dass Millionen Minder- und Unschuldige von der Rache der Roten Armee betroffen waren, die Rote Armee ist zuvor jahrelang durch verbrannte Landschaften gezogen, welche die Deutschen bei ihrem Rückzug hinterließen. Hätte sie Gleiches mit Gleichem vergolten, sähe Deutschland heute wesentlich anders aus.
25 Millionen Sowjetbürger kamen ums Leben, davon die Mehrheit, knapp 15 Milionen Zivilisten. Bei Deutschland waren es knapp 8 Millionen, davon aber „nur“ knapp 2 1/2 Millionen Zivilisten und etwa 5 1/2 Millionen Soldaten.
Deshalb: Seien wir froh, dass bei all den Grausamkeiten 1945 die Sowjets nicht Gleiches mit Gleichem vergolten haben. Das heißt nicht, dass wir die traumatischen Erfahrungen, die auch Minder- und Unschuldige Menschen in Dtld. machen mussten geringschätzen.
 
Ich bin mir der unfassbaren Verbrechen der Einsatzgruppen der SS aber auch der Wehrmacht in der Sowjetunion sehr bewusst! Und das ich diese absolut verurteile, muss nicht extra erwähnt werden.

Beide Nationen haben entsetzliche viele Menschen verloren!

Die Rotarmisten wurden ja, bevor sie den preussischen Boden betraten, ganz bewusst, zielgerichtet, regelrecht durch ein Herrn Ilja Ehrenburg geradezu in ihrem Hasse eingepeitscht. Nur, wenn man die deutschen Verbrechen durch eigene, schwere Verbrechen begegnet, dann ist es vorbei mit dem Anspruch der höheren oder besseren Moral. Meine persönliche Meinung. Man hat sich dann auch auf eine furchtbare Ebene begeben.

Meine beiden Onkels, die in den 50zigern aus Silberien heimkehrten, die waren vollkommen kaputt. Die haben eine Gehirnwäsche verpasst bekommen, von der sie sich nie wieder erholen sollten.

Und machen wir uns nichts vor. Das sowjetische Regime war ebenfalls ein verbrecherisches. Denke doch mal nur an den versuchten Völkermord an die Bevölkerung der Ukraine. Oder die perverse Schauprozesse der 30ziger Jahre, den Überfall auf Finnland, die baltischen Ländern.
 
Ich bin mir der unfassbaren Verbrechen der Einsatzgruppen der SS aber auch der Wehrmacht in der Sowjetunion sehr bewusst! Und das ich diese absolut verurteile, muss nicht extra erwähnt werden.
Keine Sorge, das weiß ich doch.
Aber bei allem, was uns an Franz‘ Diskussionsweise bitter aufstoßen mag, so halte ich tu quoque-Argumentationen (Whataboutism) für nicht zielführend.
Wir reden in diesem Thread über den Vernichtungskrieg. Verbrechen der Sowjetunion sind ein eigenes Thema.
 
I have absolutely no problem with the fact that the Nazi Empire lost this terrible war. But on the contrary!

But there is still no answer from you, whether the German victims of the Red Army will be remembered in Russia?

In short, no. The German victims are not remembered and, moreover, they do not consider it necessary to remember. Germany attacked, the Germans burned villages, raped women for four years in the occupied territories. German women and old people were well aware of what their husbands and sons were doing - they were destroying "subhumans", making room for Lebensraum. Put yourself in the shoes of a Soviet soldier whose house was burned down, and his wife was raped and killed. This soldier should then pat the German women on the head? Show generosity and not touch anyone? Do not make me laugh. Most would avenge their loved ones.
If you want to hurt me with your rude sentences, do not try. I am not a supporter of the USSR, Stalin and attacks on other countries. All this happened, you know about it, I know about it and many others know about it. The USSR paid in full for its mistakes with the lives of millions of Russian (and not only) people. Less anger!
 
Dies ist in erster Linie ein deutschsprachiges Forum. Wir bemühen uns um sprachliche und begriffliche Klarheit. Das geht in der eigenen Sprache am besten.
Man kann sehr wohl in einem internationalen Forum schreiben.
Dennoch: der Sprachgebrauch ist ein anderer. Ich tue mich schwer den Begriff "The slavs" im Blick auf den zweiten Weltkrieg zu verwenden. Da werden Völker und Ethnien subsumiert, die keineswegs darunter global zusammengefasst werden wollen.
Polen und Tschechen, Slowaken, Kroaten und Serben, Ukrainer und Russen, Esten Letten und Litauer, Finnen, Albaner: sie haben eine eigene Geschichte der ethnischen Konflikte, der Freiheitsbewegungen und der Abgrenzung gegenüber Hegemonialbestrebungen.
Der Panslawismus hat eine lange blutige Spur in Europa hinterlassen und ist bei den meisten Völkern in Mittel- und Südosteuropa diskreditiert.
 
Thank you for visiting the Museum of the Siege of Leningrad! But you are rather an exception to the rule, most of the guests from Germany, upon arrival in St. Petersburg, mostly go to the nearest bar to get drunk on beer. (I worked at the hotel reception). "Hate is a bad friend" - There is a good phrase - Hate It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet. (Maya Angelou)
I'm saddened to see you've basically come to this place to see your prejudices confirmed. This is what tourists do, you know, visiting other cities: They try having a good time. That's a pretty normal behaviour regardless of nationality.
Please watch the YouTube channel "German History Archive", look at the smiling, happy faces of the German soldier.
Based on what you've told us about yourself, I can be sympathetic for your feeling irked by such a sight, but you're being willfully selective in your bid to find your views confirmed.

So there's a Youtube channel. What of it? How many views does it even have, how many subscribers? How many of them are German? What is its significance in the public eye?

I quoted these select examples from your comments only to make a point. I understand where your antipathy is coming from, but you should be able to understand its futility. It is not a state of mind that can be sustained.

I know for a fact that Swedish troops massacred my entire home town during the Thirty Year's war, a conflict which had proportionally killed even more people than the Second World War did.

I do not take a dislike to Swedes, I do not resent the fact even modern-day Swedes revere Gustavus Adolphus – who orchestrated a campaign that saw Germany lose a fifth of her population – as a national hero.

Speaking from a humanist perspective, it's at least a good sign that modern-day Germans don't revere Nazi criminals – much unlike e.g. the Japanese, who still revere their war criminals.

Anyways, this branch of the discussion is moot. I would like to try and answer your question, regardless.
"France and Germany have shown how international reconciliation works. Both nations are close friends today." - with all due respect, this is not a very correct comparison. France quickly lost, surrendered, in fact did not take part in the Second World War. The destruction and damage caused by Germany to the USSR is not comparable to what France lost. It is easy to forgive and forget when you first lost, secondly you didn’t put up resistance, thirdly your cities weren’t destroyed, your people weren’t killed.
You're quite mistaken, it is a very apt comparison.

France and Germany had been at each others' throats for centuries, so much so that both nations considered the other a "hereditary enemy". Depending on what to count as all-out war, they were at war no less than 17 times in the two centuries leading up to 1945, often one war leading directly to the next as a means of reprisal.

That both countries are on friendly terms now – and not just their governments but their peoples as well if polls are to be believed – is a miracle. We'll have to come back to this, as it directly ties in to your question.

You've wondered why a distinction is made in the German concscious mind between the Holocaust and other Nazi crimes, such as the widespread devastation caused in what was then the USSR.

You've suggested a variety of rather unworthy motives for this, to which German members responded by asking whether or not the war crimes of the Red Army were being remembered in Russia.

Personally, I found that response uncalled-for; violence begets violence, as you correctly insisted.

(Even though your comments lean hard towards exonerating the individual from whatever crimes they committed. Violence begets violence, but violence doesn't justify violence.)

I would argue there are three reasons for the distinction mentioned above:

1. Exposition. The Holocaust happened right here; events like the siege of Leningrad did not. The Holocaust, being rightfully seen as a unique event by scholars globally, is widely discussed and such discussions tend to spawn new discussions. Psychologically speaking, this is inevitable.

2. The Holocaust is a unique event; the devastations Hitler's armies inflicted upon the Soviet Union are not. In the early 20th century anti-Semitism was to be found anywhere in Europe, but only in Germany (and Austria) did the spark of anti-Semitism find enough fuel to explode into an industrialized machinery of murder.

Though many genocides happened before and, sadly, have happened since, the only ones even remotely comparable to the Holocaust in terms of degree of heinous purposefulness were those in Cambodia and Rwanda. In comparison, the others were rather spontaneous outbursts of violence.

However, the inhumane methods of warfare and deprivations visited upon Russia were not entirely unique. The history books are filled to the brim with invasors waging what modern scholars would consider a total war, a war of annihilation on a foreign territory.

3. But most important of all reasons was the Cold War. The reason that e.g. France and Germany were able to reconciliate after the war; the reason that German school children went to tend to the graves at Oradour sur Glane after the war and not to those at Leningrad; was the Cold War.

In your contributions to this forum, you've often cited psychology to explain human behaviour (e.g. the war crimes committed by the Red Army) yet still you seem strangely unwilling to take psychology into account elsewhere. But man cannot escape the way the human mind works.

I only have to look out of my window to see the adjacent road still dotted with so-called prechamber shafts, holes in the blacktop meant to receive obstacles designed to slow down the tanks of the Soviet Union in an attack which Western Europe feared was coming for more than fourty years.

Seeing you've stated your dislike for the Soviet system, I'm sure you'll agree Soviet leaders did everything in their power to make the West believe such an attack was surely coming. An attack which, according to military historians, would've rendered Germany permanently uninhabitable and killed tens of millions.

It shouldn't come as a surprise to you then that West Germans, except maybe those of a pro-Communist persuasion, rather didn't think of Russia at all for a long time. It shouldn't come as a surprise to you that the public focus shifted to aspects of the Nazis' crimes other than the Holocaust only in recent years.
 
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(Even though your comments lean hard towards exonerating the individual from whatever crimes they committed. Violence begets violence, but violence doesn't justify violence.)

Das erzähle mal den Angehörigen der Opfer der Roten Armee.
Die Frage ist m.E. nach keineswegs unangebracht. Man kann nicht auf der einen Seite Gedenken an die Opfer des deutschen Vernichtungskrieges mehr oder weniger einfordern, auf der anderen Seite aber den Opfern der eigenen Verbrechen mit den lapidaren Hinweis nicht gedenken, da Deutschland der Angreifer war. Es war klar, das die Rotarmisten nicht mit Samthandschuhen vorgehen würden. Die Rotarmisten wurden ja in ihrem Hass durch Figuren wie Ilja Ehrenburg systematisch aufgehetzt. Die Massenvergewaltigungen, die Verschleppungen und die zahlreichen Morde kann nicht einfach damit weggewischt werden, die Deutschen waren die Angreifer.

Versöhnung ist nur dann möglich, wenn beide Seiten aufeinander zugehen und der Opfer beider Nationen gedacht wird. So wie hier im Thread geäußert, wird das nie etwas werden.
 
Versöhnung ist nur dann möglich, wenn beide Seiten aufeinander zugehen und der Opfer beider Nationen gedacht wird. So wie hier im Thread geäußert, wird das nie etwas werden.
Exakt!

Die Rotarmisten wurden ja in ihrem Hass durch Figuren wie Ilja Ehrenburg systematisch aufgehetzt.
zu I. Ehrenburgs journalistischer und literarischer Tätigkeit während des "großen vaterländischen Kriegs":
Eine besondere Rolle in Ehrenburgs Tätigkeit während des Zweiten Weltkriegs spielte die Dokumentation der Shoa und des Kampfes der Juden. Im August 1941 fand in Moskau eine große Versammlung prominenter jüdischer Sowjetbürger statt: Solomon Michoels, Perez Markisch, Ilja Ehrenburg und andere appellierten über den Rundfunk an die Juden der Welt, die sowjetischen Juden in ihrem Kampf zu unterstützen. Dies waren die Anfänge des Jüdischen Antifaschistischen Komitees, das im April 1942 gegründet wurde.
Gemeinsam mit Wassili Grossman begann Ehrenburg Berichte über die deutschen Massaker an Juden zu sammeln, die in die weltweit erste umfassende Dokumentation der Shoa münden sollten: das Schwarzbuch über den Genozid an den sowjetischen Juden, das mit Unterstützung amerikanischer jüdischer Organisationen (u. a. unter wesentlicher Beteiligung von Albert Einstein) konzipiert wurde und für ein gleichzeitiges Erscheinen in den USA und der Sowjetunion vorgesehen war. Ehrenburg und Grossman fungierten als Herausgeber und trugen selbst Berichte bei.[24] Zu den Mitarbeitern gehörten Margarita Aliger, Abraham Sutzkever, Solomon Michoels und Owadi Sawitsch. Besonders wichtig war Ehrenburg eine Veröffentlichung in der Sowjetunion, weil er über den „heimischen“ Antisemitismus sehr gut Bescheid wusste.[25] Teile des Materials konnten in Snamja und der jiddischsprachigen Sammlung Merder fun Felker erscheinen, doch es gab zunehmend Probleme mit der sowjetischen Zensur, die Berichte über jüdische Opfer und Kämpfer als nationalistische Verirrung ansah. Schließlich wurde der bereits fertige Satz 1948 im Zuge von Stalins antisemitischen Kampagnen zerstört. Das Schwarzbuch ist in der Sowjetunion nie erschienen.
Ehrenburgs letzter Kriegsartikel „Es reicht!“, veröffentlicht am 11. April 1945, führte dazu, dass er in der Prawda abgekanzelt wurde und einen Monat lang keine Artikel mehr veröffentlichen konnte. (siehe #„Es reicht!“).
und
Die emotionale Durchschlagskraft von Ehrenburgs Aufrufen zu Hass und „Abrechnung“ einerseits, seine über die Jahre stets wiederholten Appelle, keine Rache zu üben und Zivilisten und Gefangene unbehelligt zu lassen, andererseits – dies wurde bereits zu Kriegszeiten teilweise als widersprüchlich empfunden. Im letzten Kriegsjahr erhielt Ehrenburg kritische Briefe von Frontsoldaten, die ihm vorhielten, er habe sich gewandelt und trete nun plötzlich für Mildtätigkeit gegenüber den Deutschen ein. Am 7. April 1945 antwortete Ehrenburg in der Krasnaja Swesda, er habe bereits 1942 für „Gerechtigkeit, nicht Rache“ plädiert.[71]
Doch das änderte nichts daran, dass die alte Parole „Töte den Deutschen!“ mit Ehrenburgs Namen verbunden blieb.
aus Ilja Grigorjewitsch Ehrenburg – Wikipedia
Jede beteiligte Seite hatte und hat Berührungsängste (Vorbehalte, Vertuschungsmythen etc) die eigenen Verbrechen zu thematisieren. Bis von Seiten der UDSSR (Gorbatschow, Jelzin) und anschließend Russlands (Jelzin, Putin) zu Katyn wenigstens teilweise die Wahrheit zugegeben wurde, wirkt wie eine Parallele zur Rezeption der Wehrmachtsausstellung.
 
It is very interesting to see how in this thread people are struggling to turn the topic from Nazi crimes to Soviet ones. Which is to be expected, because you don't really want to believe that your ancestors were murderers, moreover, people who just wanted to kill, take revenge, and destroy. When you say that the actions of the Soviets were caused by the activities of the Germans on the territory of the USSR, you do not want to understand. It starts with “what about this, what about another”, and “oh, look what it was Ilya Erinburg wrote about the Germans” What was the Soviet Jew supposed to write in 1942? When his people were burned in ovens, what was he supposed to write? Write an article about Jesus and universal forgiveness. Leave it to the saints. You write a lot here about respect, but you yourself do not want to show this respect.
PS There was a Cold War - that is why we Germans are not interested in what our ancestors did on the territory of the USSR. Because the Russians were our enemies, and they remain, right?
Separately, I will clarify that most people in Russia have a good attitude towards Germans, so you can not worry about this. Many have forgiven everything for a long time. Do not think negatively about them, one way or another, I'm the only Russian here who is engaged in a dialogue with you.
 
Well, I think you are no right with your interpretation. We know, what Germans did. We are talking every day about it. We know exactly, that Soviet citizens (soldiers and civilians) paid the the highest price in this war. And we understand, that there was a feeling of revenge in 1944/45. the war is over. 86 years by now. Nearly nobody, who lived than, lives any longer, because the mediocre life ends with about 80 years. Well some people reach an age up to 120 years, but that’s not normal. So nearly nobody, eben kids, who were born during the war, lives any longer. So there should be time to remember, that about 99 % of the now living Germans were born during or after the war. But thou are still full of hate. Thou (I write this old English thou because this seems to be a personal thing) disrespect other resistance than Soviet one, because they had less losses. You disrespect, that Germans suffered, too. That the same things, Germans did in the Soviet Union came back to Germany. Well, that’s in a way understandable. But at last the revenge didn‘t differ between guilty and unguilty. Well I can understand that, who would ask as a first brutally attacked but now warwinning soldier, who is guilty und who‘s not. But now 86 years later, thou‘re arguing as if you were in the situation 86 years ago and thou disrespect, that there were people killed in Germany that had nothing to do with the atrocities of war. Women were raped, even girls, only ten years old. People were burned in there villages. That were things that happened. Und let us not forget, that Soviet troops didn‘t help the Polish resistance, the Armija Krajowa against German atrocities. No they awaited the attack on Warszawa until Germans had submitted the revolt. Just on the other side of the Weichsel. Or remember the massacre of Katyń. This was a massacre of Soviet soldiers against Polish intellectuals and officers. One can never relativize one crime with another. And we know, that Nazi Germany had plans to (nearly) eradicate the Polish. But if you come to a German history forum and thou tell the people who are well aware of German atrocities in Eastern Europe, that the raping of their mothers, aunts, grandmothers and sisters etc. was just justice, than thou provoke on purpose. The Soviets were doing atrocities, too. Against the Polish even before the Germans attacked the SU. So your argumentation is somehow hypocrite. You mustn‘t like Germans. But you shouldn‘t disrespect that we had innocent victims, too. That’s what you were doing, provoking reactions. And I think you are well aware of that.
 
Well, I think you are no right with your interpretation. We know, what Germans did. We are talking every day about it. We know exactly, that Soviet citizens (soldiers and civilians) paid the the highest price in this war. And we understand, that there was a feeling of revenge in 1944/45. the war is over. 86 years by now. Nearly nobody, who lived than, lives any longer, because the mediocre life ends with about 80 years. Well some people reach an age up to 120 years, but that’s not normal. So nearly nobody, eben kids, who were born during the war, lives any longer. So there should be time to remember, that about 99 % of the now living Germans were born during or after the war. But thou are still full of hate. Thou (I write this old English thou because this seems to be a personal thing) disrespect other resistance than Soviet one, because they had less losses. You disrespect, that Germans suffered, too. That the same things, Germans did in the Soviet Union came back to Germany. Well, that’s in a way understandable. But at last the revenge didn‘t differ between guilty and unguilty. Well I can understand that, who would ask as a first brutally attacked but now warwinning soldier, who is guilty und who‘s not. But now 86 years later, thou‘re arguing as if you were in the situation 86 years ago and thou disrespect, that there were people killed in Germany that had nothing to do with the atrocities of war. Women were raped, even girls, only ten years old. People were burned in there villages. That were things that happened. Und let us not forget, that Soviet troops didn‘t help the Polish resistance, the Armija Krajowa against German atrocities. No they awaited the attack on Warszawa until Germans had submitted the revolt. Just on the other side of the Weichsel. Or remember the massacre of Katyń. This was a massacre of Soviet soldiers against Polish intellectuals and officers. One can never relativize one crime with another. And we know, that Nazi Germany had plans to (nearly) eradicate the Polish. But if you come to a German history forum and thou tell the people who are well aware of German atrocities in Eastern Europe, that the raping of their mothers, aunts, grandmothers and sisters etc. was just justice, than thou provoke on purpose. The Soviets were doing atrocities, too. Against the Polish even before the Germans attacked the SU. So your argumentation is somehow hypocrite. You mustn‘t like Germans. But you shouldn‘t disrespect that we had innocent victims, too. That’s what you were doing, provoking reactions. And I think you are well aware of that.


Ok, you continue the same as before - "And you, and the Soviets, and their atrocities, and Katyn," innocent "women who enthusiastically made a greeting in honor of the Fuhrer and handed Jews over to the Nazi police." I can help you list all the Soviets' crimes further, buddy. I know them very well. It's not for you to talk about hypocrisy. Watch your words better. Why in your country the Bundeswehr walks with a torchlight procession in front of the Rechistag, why does the German authorities decide to pay money only to the blockaded Jews, and not to all those who suffered from hunger in Leningrad? Have you decided to divide the victims into worthy ones and not? Can you divide them along ethnic lines? I personally do not need anything from you, but why arrange hypocritical payments, and leave others with nothing. Why do I see on the news how a German delegation arrives in France at the site of a burned-down village, and why then do German delegations almost never come to Russia to unveil monuments at the sites of thousands of burned-down villages? Maybe because France is a friend, and Russia is still the eastern barbaric enemies. You have no right to talk about hypocrisy.
 
But now 86 years later, thou‘re arguing as if you were in the situation 86 years ago and thou disrespect, that there were people killed in Germany that had nothing to do with the atrocities of war. Women were raped, even girls, only ten years old. People were burned in there villages. That were things that happened. Und let us not forget, that Soviet troops didn‘t help the Polish resistance, the Armija Krajowa against German atrocities. No they awaited the attack on Warszawa until Germans had submitted the revolt. Just on the other side of the Weichsel. Or remember the massacre of Katyń. This was a massacre of Soviet soldiers against Polish intellectuals and officers. One can never relativize one crime with another. And we know, that Nazi Germany had plans to (nearly) eradicate the Polish. But if you come to a German history forum and thou tell the people who are well aware of German atrocities in Eastern Europe, that the raping of their mothers, aunts, grandmothers and sisters etc. was just justice, than thou provoke on purpose. The Soviets were doing atrocities, too. Against the Polish even before the Germans attacked the SU. So your argumentation is somehow hypocrite.
Applause!

...what´s that?
Write an article about Jesus and universal forgiveness.
do you try to write with ironic humour? ...well... an "article about Jesus and universal forgiveness" is much better written by russians - i have a modest example: Dostoevski (his Jesus forgives the universal inquisition including all the catholic terror) - - - well @FranzJunker the crown goes to a well known russian: he had written the best "article" about Jesus, you´ll find it in a novel called bratja karamazov
...did you see and understand (they are written in german language) the Wikipedia citation about Ilja Ehrenburg? Ehrenburg has a honestful place in literature, like Solshenizyn and Kopelew. Their literary works are well known in Germany, and the history of the 20th century is also well known.
 
Um miteinander reden zu können muss man sich auf einer sprachlichen und begrifflichen Ebene begegnen.
Ich glaube nicht dass "Franz Junker" Englisch als Muttersprache hat. Warum dann, wenn er Google Translate benutzt, die Diskussion auf Englisch führen, in einer dritten Sprache?
Wenn dies ein englischsprachiges und wissenschaftliches Forum wäre, hätten wir ein Forum das auch andere Leser aus Osteuropa hat.
Dies ist aber nicht der Fall. Und in dem Versuch von "Franz Junker" sehe ich Methode.

Wir haben auf dieser Ebene (englischsprachige Diskussion in einem deutschen Forum) alle anderen Europäer ausgeschlossen die eine andere Auffassung als die geäußerte panslawistische Sichtweise haben, neben der der hier vertretenen deutschen Forumsteilnehmer.
Ich spreche meine Eltern (geb. 1924 und 1930) von persönlicher Verstrickung frei, sie haben mir frei von ihren Erfahrungen erzählt.

Die Auseinandersetzung mit Gewalt in Europa ist aber eine Aufgabe für alle Europäer, und da lasse ich mich nicht manipulieren und auf einen Platz zerren, in einer Sprachregelung die einer bekannten Rhetorik folgt.

Mir geht es auch um die Verbrechen nach dem 8. Mai 1945, ich sehe einen klaren Weg zu Srebreniça und der Ukraine.

Dieses Forum ist kein Tribunal, sondern ein Ort der Begegnung.
 
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