Kein heroischer 320km Gewaltmarsch

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Ob es wirklich eine Neuigkeit ist, kann ich nicht beurteilen. König Harolds Truppen sollen nach Hastings per Flotte gefahren und nicht 320km marschiert sein:
 
Das ist höchst interessant! Wobei mich eine Passage irritiert, was aber auch der Übersetzung geschuldet sein könnte:
Ähnlich sieht es auch Roy Porter von English Heritage, Kurator des Schlachtfelds von Hastings: „Was wir von König Haralds früheren militärischen Feldzügen wissen, passt zur Vorstellung, dass er die Flotte zum Transport seiner Soldaten und zum Kampf gegen Wilhelm einsetzte“, so Porter. „Auch in Überlieferungen der Normannen finden sich Hinweise darauf. Demnach wollte der Angelsachsenkönig Landtruppen und Schiffe nutzen, um die Normannen auf der Halbinsel von Hastings in die Zange zu nehmen.

Allerdings schlug dieser Plan fehl: Die angelsächsische Flotte traf zu spät ein. Dadurch konnten die Normannen in der Schlacht die Überhand gewinnen, bevor die Verteidigung vollends stand. König Harald II. starb nach erbittertem Kampf seiner letzten Getreuen und der Weg für Wilhelm den Eroberer zum Thron von England war damit frei.

Wie wollte Harald II. Wilhelm denn mit Schiffen zu Lande in die Zange nehmen? Ob seine Truppen nun zu Fuß oder zu Schiff nach Sussex gebracht wurden, soweit mir bekannt ist, warf er alles an Kräften in den Kampf, worüber er noch verfügte. Was sollten seine Schiffe damals noch bewirken? Seegefechte wurden durch Entern ausgetragen, in Landgefechte konnte eine Flotte nur durch das Anlanden von Truppen eingreifen.

Beides benötigt entsprechende Kräfte, die er aber doch gar nicht mehr hatte?

Und wenn er sie hatte, aber seine Flotte zu spät eintraf, warum hätte Harald dann den Kampf suchen sollen? Er hätte doch auf eine günstigere Gelegenheit warten und die Normannen aus zwei Richtungen attackieren können.
 
Also mir kommt das ganze noch recht spanisch seltsam vor... da sollen die letzten "200 Jahre", seit der viktorianischen Ära die britischen Historiker einen Lesefehler nicht bemerkt haben, der nicht irgendein unbedeutendes Nebenereignis der englischen Geschichte betrifft, sondern eines der berühmtesten Ereignisse. Dann kommt Tom License daher und liest nach 200 Jahren endlich mal wieder den Text? Die Angelsächsische Chronik ist ja jetzt auch nicht irgendeine Quelle unter vielen, sondern auch eine vielbeachtete (bzw. eine vielbeachtete Quellengruppe, da es ja mehrere tw. voneinander abweichende Versionen gibt), die nicht nur von Historikern gelesen wird, sondern auch von Sprachwissenschaftlern als besonders altes Zeugnis der englischen Volkssprache und von Literaturwissenschaftlern wegen der eingeflochtenen Gedichte.
 
...da ist keine.
Ob der knapp 40km von Hastings entfernte Landzipfel Dungeness gemeint ist?
Eigentlich sagt man ja, dass die Schlacht beim Kloster Battle stattgefunden habe.

Tom License sagt:

I was reading the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, one of the most complete accounts of English history at that time, and one or tow other sources in latin and I found that there were lots of references to ships in there...​
Solche Aussagen liebe ich ja: "Ich habe ein oder zwei Quellen auf Latein gelesen...." Da könnt ich mich drüber aufregen. Statt Ross und Reiter zu nennen, um es Interessierten zu erleichtern, die Quellenstellen zu finden, "ich habe da mal so Quellen gelesen, genau erinnere ich mich nicht mehr - war es eine, waren es zwei?" Auch Anglo-Saxon Chronicle ist reichlich unpräzise. Vermutlich waren es die HSS A, D und E (Petersborough Chronicle), da diese diese auch den Zeitraum 1066 abdecken.
 
Ich meine mich zu entsinnen, dass die Darstellung mit dem Gewaltmarsch definitiv älter ist, und bin halbwegs sicher, dass sie bereits in Parisiensis' Historia Anglorum auftaucht. Nebenbei: Gar so extrem und unsinnig, wie in dem Artikel dargestellt, wäre die behauptete Marschleistung nun auch wieder nicht; jedenfalls ist sie nicht ohne Beispiel in der Kriegsgeschichte.
 
Hier aus einer englischen ÜS von 1847, die verschiedene Versionen aufgreift (leider wird nicht klar welche welche ist):

A. 1066. In this year king Harold came from York to Westminster, at that Easter which was after the mid-winte in which the king died; and Easter was then on the day 16th before the Kalends of May. Then was, over all England, such a token seen in the heavens, as no man ever before saw. Some men said that it was cometa the star, which some men call the haired star; and it appeared first on the eve Litania Major, the 8th before the Kalends of May, and so shone all the seven nights. And soon after came in Tosty the earl from beyond sea into the Isle of Wight, with so great a fleet as he might procure; and there they yielded him as well money as food. And king Harold, his brother, gathered so great a ship-force, and also a land-force, as no king here in the land had before done; because it was made known to him that William the bastard would come hither and win this land; all as it afterwards happened. And the while, came Tosty the earl into Humber with sixty ships; and Edwin the earl came with a land-force and drove him out. And the boatmen forsook him; and he went to Scotland with twelve vessels. And there met him Harold king of Norway with three hundred ships; and Tosty submitted to him and became his man. And they then went both into Humber, until they came to York; and there fought against them Edwin the earl, and Morkar the earl, his brother: but the Northmen had the victory. Then was it made known to Harold king of the Angles that this had thus happened: and this battle was on the vigil of St. Matthew. Then came Harold our king unawares on the Northmen, and met with them beyond York, at Stanford-bridge, with a great army of English people; and there during the day was a very severe fight on both sides. There was slain Harold the Fair-haired, and Tosty the earl; and the Northmen who were there remaining were put to flight; and the English from behind hotly smote them, until they came, some, to their ships, some were drowned, and some also burned; and thus in divers ways they perished, so that there were few left: and the English had possession of the place of carnage. The king then gave his protection to Olave, son of the king of the Norwegians, and to their bishop, and to the earl of Orkney, and to all those who were left in the ships: and they then went up to our king, and swore oaths that they ever would observe peace and friendship towards this land; and the king let them go home with twenty-four ships. These two general battles were fought within five days. Then came William earl of Normandy into Pevensey, on the eve of St. Michael's-mass: and soon after they were on their way, they constructed a castle at Hasting's-port. This was then made known to king Harold, and he then gathered a great force, and came to meet him at the estuary of Appledore; and William came against him unawares, before his people were set in order. But the king nevertheless strenuously fought against him with those men who would follow him; and there was great slaughter made on either hand. There was slain king Harold, and Leofwin the earl, his brother, and Girth the earl, his brother, and many good men; and the Frenchmen had possession of the place of carnage, all as God granted them for the people's sins. Archbishop Aldred and the townsmen of London would then have child Edgar for king, all as was his true natural right: and Edwin and Morcar vowed to him that they would fight together with him. But in that degree that it ought ever to have been forwarder, so was it from day to day later and worse; so that at the end all passed away. This fight was done on the day of Calixtus the pope. And William the earl went afterwards again to Hastings, and there awaited to see whether the people would submit to him. But when he understood that they would not come to him, he went upwards with all his army which was left to him, and that which afterwards had come from over sea to him; and he plundered all that part which he over-ran, until he came to Berkhampstead. And there came to meet him archbishop Aldred,[256] and child Edgar, and Edwin the earl, and Morcar the earl, and all the chief men of London; and then submitted, for need, when the most harm had been done: and it was very unwise that they had not done so before; since God would not better it, for our sins: and they delivered hostages, and swore oaths to him; and he vowed to them that he would be a loving lord to them: and nevertheless, during this, they plundered all that they over-ran. Then, on mid-winter's day, archbishop Aldred consecrated him king at Westminster; and he gave him a pledge upon Christ's book, and also swore, before he would set the crown upon his head, that he would govern this nation as well as any king before him had at the best done, if they would be faithful to him. Nevertheless, he laid a tribute on the people, very heavy; and then went, during Lent, over sea to Normandy, and took with him archbishop Stigand, and Aylnoth, abbat of Glastonbury, and child Edgar, and Edwin the earl, and Morkar the earl, and Waltheof the earl, and many other good men of land. And bishop Odo[257] and William the earl remained here behind, and they built castles wide throughout the nation, and poor people distressed; and ever after it greatly grew in evil. May the end be good when God will!


A. 1066. This year died king Edward, and Harold the earl succeeded to the kingdom, and held it forty weeks and one day. And this year came William, and won England. And in this year Christ-Church[258] was burned. And this year appeared a comet on the 14th before the Kalends of May.
 
A. 1066. . . .[259] And then he [Tosty] went thence, and did harm everywhere by the sea-coast where he could land, as far as Sandwich. Then was it made known to king Harold, who was in London, that Tosty his brother was come to Sandwich. Then gathered he so great a ship-force, and also a land force, as no king here in the land had before gathered, because it had been soothly said unto him, that William the earl from Normandy, king Edward's kinsman, would come hither and subdue this land: all as it afterwards happened. When Tosty learned that king Harold was on his way to Sandwich, then went he from Sandwich, and took some of the boatmen with him, some willingly and some unwillingly; and went then north into Humber, and there ravaged in Lindsey, and there slew many good men. When Edwin the earl and Morcar the earl understood that, then came they thither, and drove him out of the land. And he went then to Scotland: and the king of Scots protected him, and assisted him with provisions; and he there abode all the summer. Then came king Harold to Sandwich, and there awaited his fleet, because it was long before it could be gathered together. And when his fleet was gathered together, then went he into the Isle of Wight, and there lay all the summer and the harvest; and a land-force was kept every where by the sea, though in the end it was of no benefit. When it was the Nativity of St. Mary, then were the men's provisions gone, and no man could any longer keep them there. Then were the men allowed to go home, and the king rode up, and the ships were despatched to London; and many perished before they came thither. When the ships had reached home, then came king Harold from Norway, north into Tyne, and unawares, with a very large ship-force, and no small one; that might be, or more. And Tosty the earl came to him with all that he had gotten, all as they had before agreed; and then the)' went both, with all the fleet, along the Ouse, up towards York. Then was it made known to king Harold in the south, as he was come from on shipboard, that Harold king of Norway and Tosty the earl were landed near York. Then went he northward, day and night, as quickly as he couM gather his forces. Then, before that king Harold could come thither, then gathered Edwin the earl and Morcar the earl from their earldom as great a force as they could get together; and they fought against the army, and made great slaughter: and there was much of the English people slain, and drowned, and driven away in flight; and the Northmen had possession of the place of carnage. And this fight was on the vigil of St. Matthew the apostle, and it was Wednesday. And then, after the fight, went Harold king of Norway, and Tosty the earl, into York, with as much people as seemed meet to them. And they delivered hostages to them from the city, and also assisted them with provisions; and so they went thence to their ships, and they agreed upon a full peace, so that they should all go with him south, and this land subdue. Then, during this, came Harold king of the Angles, with, all his forces, on the Sunday, to Tadcaster, and there drew up his force, and went then on Monday throughout York; and Harold king of Norway, and Tosty the earl, and their forces, were gone from their ships beyond York to Stanfordbridge, because it had been promised them for a certainty, that there, from all the shire, hostages should be brought to meet them. Then came Harold king of the English against them, unawares, beyond the bridge, and they there joined battle, and very strenuously, for a long time of the day, continued fighting: and there was Harold king of Norway and Tosty the earl slain, and numberless of the people with them, as well of the Northmen as of the English: and the Northmen fled from the English. Then was there one of the Norwegians who withstood the English people, so that they might not pass over the bridge, nor obtain the victory. Then an Englishman aimed at him with a javelin, but it availed nothing; and then came another under the bridge, and pierced him terribly inwards under the coat of mail. Then came Harold, king of the English, over the bridge, and his forces onward with him, and there made great slaughter, as well of Norwegians as of Flemings. And the king's son, Edmund, Harold let go home to Norway, with all the ships.

A. 1066, In this year was consecrated the minster at Westminster, on Childer-mass-day. And king Edward died, on the eve of Twelfth-day; and he was buried on Twelfth-day, within the newly consecrated church at Westminster. And Harold the earl succeeded to the kingdom of England, even as the king had granted it to him, and men also had chosen him thereto; and he was crowned as king on Twelfth-day. And that same year that he became king, he went out with a fleet against William;[260] and the while, came Tosty the earl into Humber with sixty ships. Edwin the earl came with a land-force and drove him out; and the boatmen forsook him. And he went to Scotland with twelve vessels; and Harold the king of Norway met him with three hundred ships, and Tosty submitted to him; and they both went into Humber, until they came to York. And Morcar the earl, and Edwin the earl, fought against them; and the king of the Norwegians had the victory. And it was made known to king Harold how it there was done, and had happened; and he came there with a great army of English men, and met him at Stanfordbridge, and slew him and the earl Tosty, and boldly overcame all the army. And the while, William the earl landed at Hastings, on St. Michael's-day: and Harold came from the north, and fought against him before all his army had come up: and there he fell, and his two brothers. Girth and Leofwin; and William subdued this land. And he came to Westminster, and archbishop Aldred consecrated him king, and men paid him tribute, and delivered him hostages, and afterwards bought their land. And then was Leofric abbat of Peterborough in that same expedition; and there he sickened, and came home, and was dead soon thereafter, on All-hallows-mass-night; God be merciful to his soul! In his day was all bliss and all good in Peterborough; and he was dear to all people, so that the king gave to St. Peter and to him the abbacy at Burton, and that of Coventry, which Leofric the earl, who was his uncle, before had made, and that of Crowland, and that of Thorney. And he conferred so much of good upon the minster of Peterborough, in gold, and in silver, and in vestments, and in land, as never any other did before him, nor any after him. After, Golden-borough became a wretched borough. Then chose the monks for abbat Brand the provost, by reason that he was a very good man, and very wise, and sent him then to Edgar the etheling, by reason that the people of the land supposed that he should become king: and the etheling granted it him then gladly. When king William heard say that, then was he very wroth, and said that the abbat had despised him. Then went good men between them, and reconciled them, by reason that the abbat was a good man. Then gave he the king forty marks of gold for a reconciliation; and then thereafter, lived he a little while, but three years. After that came every tribulation and every evil to the minster. God have mercy on it!
 
Tostig.jpg


1. Tostig Godwinson, der noch unter Edward - vielleicht auf Betreiben seines Bruders - seine Herrschaft verlor, bekommt von seinem Schwiegervater Schiffe.
2. Er fährt zu William, um den gegen seinen Bruder Harold aufzustacheln.
3. Fährt dann nach Wright, wo er Geld und Proviant bekommt (erpresst?), 4.) plündert die Küste bis Sandwich
5. Tostig fährt in den Humble, wird aber von den Rebellen gegen seine frühere Herrschaft, Earl Edwin und dessen Bruder geschlagen und flieht 6. nach Schottland, nimmt möglicherweise bereits von dort Kontakt miit Harald III. von Norwegen auf.
7. Harald III. kommt aus Norwegen und fährt in den Humble, greift gemeinsam mit Tostig York an und schlägt Earl Edwin, lässt sich Geiseln stellen.

9. Harold hat eine Schiffsabwehr gegen William organisiert, aber muss nun auf die Ereignisse im Norden reagieren. Laut Übersetzung nähert er sich York über 10. Tadcaster. Das hieße, er wäre marschiert, nicht mit der Flotte gekommen. Die norwegische Flotte wird nach einer Fassung nach der 11. Schlacht von Stamfort Bridge weitgehend zerstört, überlebende Norweger, denen man verziehen hat, dürfen sich nach einer anderen Fassung mit 12 Schiffen zurückziehen. Ob Harold am Humble noch nennenswert eroberte norwegische Schiffe zur Verfügung hatte, ist dem nicht zu entnehmen.

12. Mittlerweile ist William in Hastings gelandet und macht die Umgebung unsicher. Harold bestellt seine Armee nach Appledore (Ashford, Kent). Das liegt heute im Inland, dürfte damals aber noch ein Hafen gewesen sein, die Marshen in der Region sind stark verlandet, es gibt dort mehrere Seehäfen, die heute Inlanddörfer sind. Flotte wäre also möglich, aber Zangenbewegung ist hier nicht angezeigt. Von Appledore nach Hastings sind es (heute) etwa 7 Stunden zu Fuß.
 
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@El Quijote weißt du, ob die Darstellung der Schlacht von Hastings in Carmen de Hastingae Proelio – Wikipedia von den Varianten der angelsächsischen Chronik abweicht?
Es ist schon interessant.... während eine nicht normannenfreundliche Fassung des Anglos-Saxon Chronicle entsetzt schreibt, dass William Burgen baute, schreibt Wido/Guido/Guy, lobend, William habe die Burgen wieder hergestellt: Męnibus et muni, castraque ponis ibi.
Obwohl Wido beschreibt, wie Harolds Bruder die Fackel an die Dächer und das Schwert an die Menschen gelegt habe (Tecta dabat flammis et gladiis populum), bezichtigt er Harold ein Kain zu sein, der aus Eifersucht seinen Bruder enthauptet habe (inuidus ille Cain fratris caput tibi amputat ense) Gott aber habe William zum Rächer des Brudermordes vorherbestimmt: hęc tibi priuidit qui debita regna subegit. Criminis infesti quatinus ultor eas.
Dazu muss man sagen, dass Tostig über seinen Schwiegervater auch zur "Familie" von William gehörte.
Insgesamt ergeht sich das Gedicht in seltsamen Widersprüchen, einerseits sollen die Engländer William als Befreier bejubelt haben, andererseits beschreibt Wido, wie William brandschatzt und plündert (natürlich als Strafe für die bösen Taten der Engländer). In einer Harold in den Mund geschobenen Rede kritisiert dieser dann wiederum Wilhelm als habgierig. Aber nach der Rede wird er als fatuus rex bezeichnet. Ein redegewaltiger Mönch sei dann per Pferd ins Lager Wilhelms nach Hastings geschickt worden, der Wilhelm aufforderte, das Land zu verlassen, aufgrund alter Allianzen sei Harold bereit, alles bis dahin Geschehene zu verzeihen. Nach er seine Rede beendet hat, beschreibt der Erzähler, wie Wilhelm die eitle Mönchskutte (uana cuculla, gerade noch prouidus eloquio monachus, jetzt uana cuculla) zusammenfaltet. Der Mönch kehrt um zu Harold und Wilhelm bereitet seine Leute auf die Schlacht vor und der Erzähler berichtet, dass Harold einen Nachtangriff auf Wilhelm geplant habe. Dass er mit Schiffen unterwegs gewesen sei, davon ist bis dahin nirgends die Rede.
Der Mönch hat plötzlich die Seiten gewechselt und wirft Harold vor, den von Edward zum Erben bestimmten WIlhelm um sein Erbe betrogen zu haben, woraufhin Harold mit vade retro, stolide reagiert. Der Verfasser lässt dann Harold selbst den Kampf zu einem Gottesurteil erklären: iudice cras Domino regni, pars iusta patebit: Diuidet ex equo sacra manus Domini.
Das teilt der Mönch nun wiederum Wilhelm mit und er verrät diesem Harolds Plan:

Dux ait Est ui rex? Non longe monachus inquit. Dixit in aure sibi Signa uidere potes. [...] Ex inprouiso sperat te fallere posse; per mare, per terram prelia magna parat. In mare quingentas fertur misisse carina, vt nostri reditus prepediatur iter.​
Der Herzog sagte: "Wo ist der König?" "Nicht weit", sprach der Mönch. Er sagte ihm ins Ohr: "Du kannst seine Feldzeichen sehen.​
Unerwartet hofft er, dich täuschen zu können; zu Wasser und zu Land bereitet er große Kämpfe vor. Auf dem Meer soll er fünfhundert Schiffe ausgesandt haben, damit der Weg unserer Rückkehr verhindert werde.“​
Plötzlich ist der erst eloquente Mönch aus dem englischen Lager, der plötzlich nur als leere Kutte abqualifiziert wurde, Franzose! ("unsere Rückkehr")
 
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Es ist schon interessant....
Nach deiner Zusammenfassung ist mir schleierhaft, wie Wikipedia zu dieser sehr positiven Beurteilung kommt:
Carmen de Hastingae Proelio gilt als eine der lebendigsten Quellen der normannischen Invasion und ist eine der wenigen, die diese aus einer nicht-normannischen Sicht erzählt. Wegen der lebendigen Schilderung der Ereignisse gibt es einzelne Stimmen, die in ihr eine Fälschung sehen oder die Entstehungszeit in ein späteres Jahrhundert verlegen. Der Historiker Frank Barlow hat jedoch schlüssig dargelegt, dass es sich um eine sehr frühe Quelle der normannischen Invasion handele.
 
und weiß auf einmal was von 500 Schiffen...
Das ließe sich sogar mit einer der Fassungen des Anglo-Saxon Chronicle harmonisieren. Harold hatte ja demzufolge zur Abwehr von William eine Flotte gebaut. Wido baut das nun um in einen hinterhältigen Trick, Harold habe die Fluchtroute verbaut.

Sonderbare Geschichte...
Vor allem die unmotivierten Brüche und Widersprüche.

Nach deiner Zusammenfassung ist mir schleierhaft, wie Wikipedia zu dieser sehr positiven Beurteilung kommt:
Carmen de Hastingae Proelio gilt als eine der lebendigsten Quellen der normannischen Invasion und ist eine der wenigen, die diese aus einer nicht-normannischen Sicht erzählt. Wegen der lebendigen Schilderung der Ereignisse gibt es einzelne Stimmen, die in ihr eine Fälschung sehen oder die Entstehungszeit in ein späteres Jahrhundert verlegen. Der Historiker Frank Barlow hat jedoch schlüssig dargelegt, dass es sich um eine sehr frühe Quelle der normannischen Invasion handele.
An dem Artikel ist sowieso einiges seltsam, da fehlen Worte und ich finde irritierend, dass vom Carmen immer ohne Artikel die Rede ist. Irgendwie wirkt der Artikel, wie eine unvollkommene Übersetzung der englischen Fassung, die allerdings (mittlerweile) sehr viel länger ist und zwar nicht die Parteilichkeit des Verfassers an sich hervorhebt, aber davon ausgeht, dass das Gedicht zur Krönung von Wilhelm vorgetragen wurde, allerdings spricht der englische Artikel auch von Ironie bzgl. Wilhelms Demut und Pietät. Als Auftraggeberin wird Mathilde, Wilhelms Ehefrau gesehen.
 
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