Nazi-Verbrechen gegen die Bevölkerung der UdSSR

Dieses Thema im Forum "Fragen & Antworten" wurde erstellt von FranzJunker, 7. Oktober 2021.

  1. Have I offended you somewhere? Or insulted someone personally on this forum? I made my own conclusions, about which I wrote
     
  2. Carolus

    Carolus Aktives Mitglied


    Some articles about the siege of Leningrad:

    Zweiter Weltkrieg: Warum Leningrad belagert und nicht erobert wurde - WELT

    Belagerung Leningrads: Wie Hunger die Menschen deformierte - WELT

    Vernichtung durch Hunger - Die Leningrader Blockade | MDR.DE

    872 Tage Hunger, eine Million Tote – 1941 begann die Blockade von Leningrad

    75 Jahre Ende der Belagerung Leningrads - "Russland sieht sich immer noch als Kriegsheld" (Archiv)

    Leningrad: Die Stadt, die dem Hunger trotzte | DW | 27.01.2019

    Eine Überlebende aus Leningrad | DW | 27.01.2014


    And of couse also in the Geschichtsforum:

    Leningrader Belagerung 1941/44

    Kriegstote der Sowjetunion

    Leningradblockade 1941-44
     
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  3. Turgot

    Turgot Aktives Mitglied

    I do not find it really sorrow to count up quantitatively. The French population suffered a four-year occupation and the associated Nazi terror. Your judgment of France is harsh and unjust. The French army did not have the vast space of the Soviet Union at its disposal.
    Almost no one of that generation lives today. It's a different, better time. Time for international understanding and reconciliation.
     
  4. Turgot

    Turgot Aktives Mitglied

    Germany is exceptionally critical of its past, especially that of the Nazi reign of terror.

    In all honesty, Germany doesn't need any tutoring to reflect critically on its own past.
     
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  5. Ugh Valencia

    Ugh Valencia Aktives Mitglied

    But that doesn't mean that there was no resistance in France or that France " in fact did not take part in WW2". France joined WW2 when the Soviet Union was still allied with Nazi-Germany. I don't get your point. Do you want to make a ranking which country suffered most from WW2? That would be the Soviet Union no doubt. They had most casualties - civilians and military. You can read that in every history book for schoolkids in Germany. But that doesn't mean that other countries didn't suffer as well.

    What else does it mean?
    Why do you want to compare war crimes with a genocide?
     
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  6. 1) I don’t want to compare anyone. I don’t care about France at all. Its resistance is very well described in many sources. Especially mentioned is the fact how women who slept with the Nazis were shaved bald and publicly branded. Wow ! It is very courageous for the French men to do this, it would be better if they fought the Germans in this way than with their own women. Well, okay, I'm not an enemy of France, I really like this country, culture, modern French. You just do not need to overestimate their role in the Second World War (again, sources will confirm this, you can find a lot of them on the Internet). At the same time, I am glad that the Nazis did not destroy the beautiful ones. beautiful French cities.
    2) Read above, maybe you will understand
    3) Good. Isn't the mass destruction of the Slavs in Poland, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus genocidal? Count how many millions of Slavs were killed (not military, but civilians), it is quite comparable to how many Jews died.
     
  7. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Grundsätzlich bin ich mit dir in dieser Frage einer Meinung. Nur sehe ich da durchaus ein kleines Problem. Wir als Angehörige der Nation, die damals fast ganz Europa mit Gewalt überzogen hat, können schwerlich von jemandem, dessen halbe Familie damals ums Leben gebracht wurde, verlangen, dass derjenige versöhnlich Dtld. gegenüber gestimmt ist. Er oder sie muss allerdings eingestehen, dass wir als Nachgeborene nicht in die Verantwortung für die Verbrechen genommen werden können.

    Auch hier bin ich durchaus deiner Meinung. Und wir können stolz darauf sein. Trotzdem auch hier ein Aber: Wir sollten nicht selbstgefällig werden, sondern selbstkritisch bleiben. Und es gibt ja nun auch in unserem Land immer wieder Leute, die gewisse Kapitel der Geschichte am liebsten abschließen würden.

    But in effect you do. Point 3 of this same Posting.

    Come on, this is demagogic. You are talking about sexist crimes after the German occupation of France against women, who for whatever reason had relationsships with German occupiers. Not about resistance.

    So, why wasn't Paris destroyed like Warszawa? Because the commanding officier of Paris disobeyed Hitler. The main desctruction of Warszawa didn't happen in 1939, it happend in 1944.
     
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  8. Scorpio

    Scorpio Aktives Mitglied

    The atrocities in the Soviet Union comitted by Germans are not forgotten and will never be forgotten. In the Federal Republic of Germany live since the 1990s more than a million German Citizens who are Ethnic Germans and descendants of Ethnic Germans born on the Territory of the Soviet Union and who speak Russian as first language. A great majority of their ancestors served in the Red Army and lost family members killed by Germans.

    The history of German fascism is probadly the best documantated period of all German history, and in the last decades there was a lot of research done to furbish up local history and atrocities comitted in rural provincial Germany.

    This Site and the Museum and Memorial is situated in Northern Hesse near the Town of Schwalmstadt and is dedicated the victims of the former prisoncamp STALAG IX A. The vast Majorities of victims buried on the graveyard of the Memorial were Soviet POW.
    https://www.gedenkstätte-trutzhain

    By the way, the museum and the Memorial is run by honarary volunteers, people who do that in their leisure time for a symbolic wage.

    If someone with a biographical backhround as Your´s has some resentment against Germany and "the Germans" it is somehow understandable. Besides You are frankly enough to admit it in a German Forum.

    Otherwise I think it a pity, because I think Your judgement is too harsh and in a sense it is not just. A not small percentage of the German people shares racistical views, but a not too small part of the German people is open minded and willing to tackle with their history critically and at least good will one should concede them.
     
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  9. Ugh Valencia

    Ugh Valencia Aktives Mitglied

    El Quijote already answered you.
    We told you about memorials, articles in news papers, threads here in our forum and that war crimes in the Soviet Union commited by Wehrmacht are in schoolbooks. No, I don't understand. What else do you expect?

    There is a difference. The Nazis wanted Polish, Ukrainian and Russian civilians and POWs as cheap work force. If the NS had not enough food to keep them alive, they didn't hesitate to let them die. They just didn't care. Though lots of Slavic people died in the same concentration camps where Jewish people died as well. Other Slavs worked on farms or in industrial complexes in Germany but did not live in a concentration camp - and even other Russian POWs fought with Andrey Andreyevich Vlassow with the Nazis in the "Russian Liberation Army". The Nazi's intention was not to kill all Slavs. They just didn't care if they died. That was inhuman, it was very often a war crime, but no genocide.

    But the Nazis wanted to extinct all the Jews in Europe. They didn't want them as forced laborers outside the concentration camps. When they were forced to work in the camps, the intention was to kill them with that work. There was no Jewish Army fighting with the Nazis in WW2. wiki as well gives you a definition of what genocide is and what not.
     
  10. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    Das ist so eine Sache. Also im Grunde genommen ist es ja nicht erst dann ein Genozid, wenn der Plan besteht, eine bestimmte Bevölkerung vollends auszurotten. Es war durchaus der Plan der Nazis, die Slawen deutlich zu minimieren und ganze Regionen in der Ukraine und im Baltikum und Westrussland zu germanisieren und als Siedlungsland zu gewinnen. Während des Krieges sollten die Slawen als "Heloten" für das Deutsche Reich arbeiten. Die erwirtschafteten Lebensmittel sollten ins Reich geliefert werden, ohne Rücksicht auf die bäuerliche Bevölkerung. (Hungerplan, nach SS-Gruppenführer Herbert Backe auch Backe-Plan).
     
  11. Ugh Valencia

    Ugh Valencia Aktives Mitglied

    "Während Völkermord die Zerstörung bestimmter abschließend aufgezählter Gruppen (nationale, ethnische, rassische und religiöse Gruppen) voraussetzt, können Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit gegen jede Zivilbevölkerung begangen werden." wiki

    "Als Völkermord wird die koordinierte und geplante Zerstörung einer Gruppe von Menschen bezeichnet, wobei diese „Gruppe“ von den Tätern definiert wird." Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit – Wikipedia

    Daher denke ich, dass der "Hungerplan" dann eher allgemein als "Verbrechen gegen die Menschlichkeit" (crimes against humanity) gewertet wird und nicht speziell als "Völkermord" resp. Genozid.
     
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 9. Oktober 2021
  12. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    § 6 Völkermord
    (1) Wer in der Absicht, eine nationale, rassische, religiöse oder ethnische Gruppe als solche ganz oder teilweise zu zerstören,

    1. ein Mitglied der Gruppe tötet,

    2. einem Mitglied der Gruppe schwere körperliche oder seelische Schäden, insbesondere der in § 226 des Strafgesetzbuches bezeichneten Art, zufügt,

    3. die Gruppe unter Lebensbedingungen stellt, die geeignet sind, ihre körperliche Zerstörung ganz oder teilweise herbeizuführen,

    4. Maßregeln verhängt, die Geburten innerhalb der Gruppe verhindern sollen,

    5. ein Kind der Gruppe gewaltsam in eine andere Gruppe überführt,
     
  13. Ugh Valencia

    Ugh Valencia Aktives Mitglied

    Ich bin kein (Völker)Strafrechtler. Prof. Boris Barth nennt in seinem Buch "Genozid - Völkermord im 20. Jahrhundert" drei eindeutige Fälle von Völkermord:
    - der Völkermord an Armeniern im 1.WK
    - die Shoah
    - der Völkermord in Ruanda 1994

    Erschwerend hinzu kommt, dass der Begriff "genocide" im Englischen wohl weiter gefasst zu sein scheint als im Deutschen "Völkermord".
    "Ab wann kann man von einem Genozid sprechen?

    Insgesamt herrscht in dieser Frage ein wenig Verwirrung. In Deutschland wird der Begriff „Genozid“ gleichbedeutend mit „Völkermord“ verwendet. In den USA ist das aber ganz anders. Dort ist es durchaus möglich, auch von „genocide“ zu sprechen, wenn eine Minderheit unterdrückt wird oder wenn in der Sowjetunion Synagogen zerstört worden sind. Dies sorgt auf internationaler Ebene für einige Verwirrung. Tatsächlich würde ich dafür plädieren, von einem engen Genozid-Begriff auszugehen, so wie es im Deutschen üblich ist."
     
  14. Turgot

    Turgot Aktives Mitglied

    Angehörige meiner Familie sind aus russischer Gefangenschaft nicht zurückgekehrt. Andere habe schwerstes Leid in russischen Gefangenenlagern erfahren und haben sich nie mehr davon erholt. Deshalb stelle ich mich aber nicht hin und sage, ich mage keine Russen oder setzte das Leid und den Widerstand anderer Völker herab.
     
  15. Turgot

    Turgot Aktives Mitglied


    You compared the suffering of Russia with that of France and made the bold assertion that France practically did not take part in the war because it had been defeated so quickly by the Wehrmacht. A certain disdain for the resistance of France, or the women who simply wanted to survive you, speaks from your argument. I would like to take the liberty of pointing out that Stalin worked together with Hitler for a long time and that Poland was attacked together, that Russia also attacked the Baltic countries and that these territories were annexed. In the previous posts you learned that the victims of the Red Army, who lost their lives in German camps in terrible ways, are thought of in Germany. How is it in Russia? Are the victims of the Red Army soldiers being remembered there when they crossed the German border`?
     
  16. 1) In general, of course, it is very "nice and respectful" to correspond with each other in German in a discussion where at least one person does not know German. Well, this is so, by the way. Do whatever you want
    2) As for the term "genocide", the concept is vague and in different languages the understanding of this term is different in some aspects. It seems to me that you do not grasp the essence of what I mean - the victims are comparable, whatever you call it. People died - millions of Slavs, millions of Jews. Accordingly, the attitude towards the memory of them should be equal.
    3) Wer Wind sät, wird den Sturm ernten. - relate to the population of Germany and German prisoners too
    4) Honestly, I was waiting for a mention of the cooperation between Stalin and the Nazis, the capture of the Baltic countries and the partition of Poland, etc. Look at the beginning of the discussion, I already answered this there. I and my friends (I cannot speak for all Russians) know all this very well, no one will justify anyone. Moreover, I am ashamed of some older Russians who are trying to justify this.
    I think because of your wounded pride, you want to translate the arrows, poking at the other with your finger. In Russia, the dead soldiers are honored, the majority knows or seeks to know the fate of their ancestors who died on the territory of the USSR and on the territory of Germany. For us, World War II is the most important, bloody, heroic page in our history. "Nobody is forgotten, nothing is forgotten"
    5) Many thanks for the good answers, it is important for me to hear an adequate point of view from the German side. However, I want to note that we are on a historical forum, most of us know history quite well. However, most of the Germans with whom I spoke, corresponded in comments on YouTube, on such resources as Quora and Reddit, were arrogant, rude, in many military aspects inclined to justify the actions of the German army, do not know anything about the eastern front, they immediately begin to reproach you Stalin, Gulag and others.
    But the world will not let the Germans and Austrians forget their actions - the Jews, Russians, Dutch and others will not forget to remind you every time. In films, books, memoirs, chronicles.
    About how German youth teaches the second world in schools, I will attach a link to the video. It is in Russian, but there is also a German language.
     
  17. El Quijote

    El Quijote Moderator Mitarbeiter

    This is a German-speaking forum, you got your answers in English. German postings were posting between German members. Not everyone in this forum speaks fluently English. There’s no secret, you are free to use a translator - there are several translators of intermediate and good quality free on the web.

    We don’t publish links to video portals or commercial websites.
     
  18. This is a discussion, all participants need to know the context. You and the user you wrote in German knows English. So do not arrange demagoguery. Or is your forum only for a select few German speakers, right?
     

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